alanjjohnstone
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You are correct, but one thing to bear in mind, the Catholic Church insisted that the indigenous population were human beings and worthy of conversion. The Conquisadors wanted them to be classed as beasts to be treated as so. But here is another religious leader declaring he is Marxist ( as he has done before)The 14th Dalai Lama has spoken about his political leaning – in 2011 he said: “I consider myself a Marxist…but not a Leninist” when speaking at a conference in Minneapolis. More recently he reiterated:
Quote:"We must have a human approach. As far as socioeconomic theory, I am Marxist," he said to the audience on Tuesday, at the lecture entitled ‘A Human Approach to World Peace’. The Tibetan spiritual leader partly blamed capitalism for inequality and said he regarded Marxism as the answer: "In capitalist countries, there is an increasing gap between the rich and the poor. In Marxism, there is emphasis on equal distribution,” he said, adding that “many Marxist leaders are now capitalists in their thinking”. He said that he regarded economic and social inequality in India as the reason for ongoing discrimination against women and low social caste.http://www.newsweek.com/i-am-marxist-says-dalai-lama-299598This contrasts with the Pope who denies he was a communist
Quote:I say only that the Communists have stolen the flag. The flag of the poor is Christian. Poverty is at the center of the Gospel. The poor are at the center of the Gospel. Let’s take Matthew 25, the protocol on which we will be judged: I was hungry, I was thirsty, I was in prison, I was sick, naked. Or, let us look at the Beatitudes, another flag. The communists say that all this is communist. Yes, right, twenty centuries later. Now when they speak one could say to them: but you are Christians [laughs].He again explains
Quote:The Gospel … does not, in fact, condemn the rich at all, except when riches become the idolatrous objects — the god of money, the golden calf.http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/full-english-text-of-pope-francis-interview-with-il-messaggero
And just how does citing Douglass make fun of him is beyond my comprehension and it is a strange sort of logic you show.You could give him his full due of respect…, if you take the time to read what he says. After all, that was his purpose…to share his knowledge and experience so other can learn.Or for all your talk of "slaves" and "enslaving" you are actually frightened of what an ex-slave actually has to say about equality and freedom.
Wow…indeed…an actual reply… and it proved i was wrong for which i apologise…i'm impressed But much less impressed from the actual content of the reply.May i suggest you learn something from a person who rightfully can say he is really a self-made man (although he declines to do so), an escaped ex-slave who educated himself http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederick_Douglass
Quote:Our best and most valued acquisitions have been obtained either from our contemporaries or from those who have preceded us in the field of thought and discovery. We have all either begged, borrowed or stolen. We have reaped where others have sown, and that which others have strown, we have gathered. It must in truth be said, though it may not accord well with self-conscious individuality and self-conceit, that no possible native force of character, and no depth of wealth and originality, can lift a man into absolute independence of his fellowmen, and no generation of men can be independent of the preceding generation. The brotherhood and inter-dependence of mankind are guarded and defended at all points. I believe in individuality, but individuals are, to the mass, like waves to the ocean. The highest order of genius is as dependent as is the lowest. It, like the loftiest waves of the sea, derives its power and greatness from the grandeur and vastness of the ocean of which it forms a part. We differ as the waves, but are one as the sea. To do something well does not necessarily imply the ability to do everything else equally well. If you can do in one direction that which I cannot do, I may in another direction, be able to do that which you cannot do. Thus the balance of power is kept comparatively even, and a self-acting brotherhood and inter-dependence is maintained.I think this is half ways a counter to the self-rigteousness of veganshttp://www.alternet.org/food/unsavory-problem-angry-vegans-who-push-and-preach-their-ideals
TWC,it was meant to lighten the exchange which is between comrades and not enemies.But when i posted it i also remembered what i said about a picture being worth a thousand words. Our propaganda is severely restricted to wordy articles…and of course that gets us involved in disputes about meanings and interpretations of terms. Half our battle is correcting what people think we mean. We have used pictures and cartoons and music rather sparingly in all our propaganda and usually second hand rather than original made for purpose. Obviously one reason is the shortage of talent. But a song lyric might not express 100% our case…or a graphic only concentrate one element of it, but when used frequently they build up to give the party case in its entirety. (the exceptions is the weekly poem on our SOYMB blog and the consistent Free Lunch strip)So often we talk about what we could do if we had the capability…put on Zinn's Marx in Soho…excerpts from the Ragged Trousered Philanthropists…put out union song CDs …oh, whatever…the range is limitless on what we could do but can't do. This causes some frustration when some members do see something that is possible even with our restricted resources…and right now its not cash but people we lack. But if we can't get a message over , we can't get the members …a vicious circle…and we all should be trying to think out the box…because as i have said…what we did in the past is not applicable today…the old ways are gone…we need new approaches, exciting methods…tub thumping oratory can no longer be practiced…we have to drum up an audience by other means. We have never ever asked people how they would like their information delivered to them but that is the first thing any media tries to determine. Is it a copy of the Standard or a You Tube video but neither is a solution unless someone reads it or views it ….and we don't possess a presence..thats the horrible fact. We can occasionally cite some fellow eccentric who has heard of us but truthfully , no-body has really…certainly not heard or read the case…i know some say they have had the opportunity…as i have when i drive past a billboard on the motorway and take no notice of the content….but if i keep driving..everyday…the sublimal impact takes place….i begin to associate mentally with the billboard image and message…but it has to be there everyday for me to see to have that effect.i'm willing to try many things that might fail…one reason is that i don't have an over-blown sense of importance of the party…i said somewhere…if it was to disappear…who would actually miss it …and our marxism materialism says it may have a small influence on the bigger picture but not a determining one …the world goes on without the SPGB…as it does when we all pass on to the Great Socialist Party in the Sky. …Central Branch of the Clouds…Anyways…enough talk for tonight…already tired from the libcom exchanges i been having
Came across another apt quote of this reformist lefty Vicar of Christ
Quote:“Some people continue to defend trickle-down theories which assume that economic growth, encouraged by a free market, will inevitably succeed in bringing about greater justice and inclusiveness in the world. This opinion, which has never been confirmed by the facts, expresses a crude and naive trust in the goodness of those wielding economic power and in the sacralized workings of the prevailing economic system. Meanwhile the excluded are still waiting.”http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/pope-francis-denounces-trickle-down-economic-theories-in-critique-of-inequality/2013/11/26/e17ffe4e-56b6-11e3-8304-caf30787c0a9_story.htmlI wonder if the Greek Orthodox archbishops are offering Syriza the same theological propping up ?
Oh…adulation of the Pope, so that would be what i suffer from ….been prostrate on my knees too long kissing the Holy Ring, have I ?My, oh, my, i have now got a better idea….let's not burn a flag…let's burn a heretic, instead !Lets out-do ISIS, after all who ever read Charlie Hebdo until the massacre…It'll certainly be a stunt…SPGB member burned at the stake for saying some nice things about the Pope…But to get me on the bonfire you have to catch me first…
This poster has made no attempt tp respond to the replies to his previous message. He has no intention of debating or discussing what he post. He is exactly what he accuses others of being….a parasite …leeching off a website for those who seek to engage in political exchange, sucking up its energy…draining it of vitality…bin him, moderator !!
Meanwhile on the easter end of the mediterrean i came across this eco-radical tendency pushing Podemos to adopt their 10-point programme based on the ideology of de-growth and daring Syriza to follow it too. http://www.commondreams.org/views/2015/01/28/yes-we-can-prosper-without-growth-10-policy-proposals-new-left
Syriza is now the darling of the Left, but also Evo Morales of Bolivia has a soft spot in the hearts of many on the Left. This is perhaps the most critical article i have read of him on the "liberal-progressive" American based websites.http://truth-out.org/news/item/28778-can-bolivia-shatter-the-vise-of-capitalismHowever it is this quote that made me think of Syriza (and allay the fears of the moderator that i am off-topic) and what lies ahead
Quote:"labor leader Oscar Olivera remarked in an interview this year, "We thought that having Evo Morales in government would change things. And many things have changed. But we know now that not enough has changed. The people do not decide; the government decides. Despite the constitution guaranteeing rights for indigenous people and Mother Earth, those policies are not implemented; they are just words..Just because the state apparatus that now controls Bolivia's water (and so many other priorities) has mass support for its social programs doesn't diminish the need for organization by the people in their own interests. It does, however, require a new type of struggle. "This is much more difficult than [organizing] against Gonzalo Sánchez de Lozada or a military or neoliberal government," Olivera said. "Evo is not like Sánchez de Lozada; he is a brother and a friend, for his other achievements. So, it is much more difficult to organize the people."The class war must continue, no matter what…(again, to accept otherwise is to surrender all our marxism)…even against those who say they are our friends…and because many believe this is really so, it weakens the class struggle.I think perhaps this is the approach any socialist would take…accept the political will of the people at the polls but try and fight the economic battles that are sure to come by demanding the political independence of the unions and community organisations.And internal conflict will now arise at that level, i am guessing as Syriza was active in the grassroots such as food banks anti racism etc…but now these groups must shed any dependence upon what is now the government.But Chavism did try to walk the line…did they succeed?
What posting would that be?Perhaps its just me, but i do have difficulty in understanding your meaning at times…which rather undermines any criticism of a stunt being misunderstood or misinterpreted if plain English is not suffice in conveying a simple message.
Our ideas are controversial, our party is controversial and we should be courting controversy, not playing it safe with respectability and our staid image…we have to seek out the public eye…If Robbo's idea is not the best then suggest others…i'm fed up being seen as the conservative socialists.I recall our open air meetings…a chairman would begin to try and gather an audience…party members would feed him the usual questions …what is socialism…what about Russia…but more effective was the pretend heckling of the speaker…a bit of theatre…impromptu agit-prop…members acting hostile…until we had succeeded in getting a core audience…once people were listening…others joined the crowd….they saw something attacted others and were curious to know what…I'm all ears to how we can get that audience other than the limited methods we now have at our disposal. No-one should be shot down for coming up with ideas, no matter how "silly" it might seem to one member…after all enough of us have said we are put off by Russel Brand's humour….but it doesn't stop some of his message succeeding in getting across.
Well, i still await any alternative "cunning plan" (i do like that Baldrick expression you use, TWC)We cannot simply persist with our 19th century means of propaganda. Already, we have one element of it, the outdoor meeting relegated redundant. The 21st century substitute, discussion lists such as this is simply ineffective at "drawing" a crowd…we have little means of offering our presence…we don't have the numbers to be outside every tube station…We have to use the capitalist media to a certain extent. Paid newspaper adverts have to stand out, not hidden away in the small ads section of items for sale…Even a photo has more impact than the text (a picture worth a thousand words) …and the headline , more message than the the text…We agree the election statement but the layout and presentation is secondary (i am sure it won't be but it is as equally important and should have the same EC attention given to it as the text)We have tried stunts…Glasgow branch, attended a protest with a banner that read "this march will achieve nothing"…i am sure party historians can suggest more unorthodox attempts where the intent was to spark interest rather than deliver the full Declaration of Principles …(.is it a party myth that at one party election meeting the candidate addressed the audience from behind a curtain…probably just a legend…but the masked candidate would stimulate interest)The mainstream parties literally spend millions on their campaigns and employ gifted talented ad-men from the commercial PR world. We can't, of course, do the same…but surely there is a DIY advertising for dummies guide out there to use as a basic manual instruction.
i've always enjoyed reading the situationist inspired text "the Right to be Geedy" (and think of it as a supplement to Paul Lafargues 19th c Right to be Lazy)https://libcom.org/library/right-be-greedy-theses-practical-necessity-demanding-everythingIt has its flaws such as its obtuse use of terminology and often interpreted as an amalgamation of individualism and communism but its essence is valid…if we are all greedy and help one another to be just as greedy, then we can be socialists and achieve socialism – self interest is mutual interest
