Thomas More and Abolition of Money

[Dave B]

For interest? Pre reformist Bernstien? on Diggers, Whinstanley and Thomas More etc etc   {But before the “diggers” abandoned their agitation, so far as its aims were of an economic nature, Gerrard Winstanley, their intellectual leader, wrote a pamphlet which unfolded the real principles and ultimate aims of the agitation without any attempt at concealment. This last independent work issuing from the “true Levellers” is also an important and interesting document in the history of Socialism. Dropping all mysticism and paraphrase, the author propounds a complete social system based on communistic principles, a Utopia, which unmistakably suggests some acquaintance with More’s Utopia. As the outcome and expression of a propaganda conducted among the labourers, and by reason of its democratic and revolutionary tendencies, it calls for fuller treatment.} https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/bernstein/works/1895/cromwell/09-communism.htm And Bernstien on yet another ‘early English communist/anarchist’? How many are there???????  {So much for Walwyn’s “soul-destroying” atheism. Now for his communism.  The associate of Lilburne, whom Freeborn John so warmly defended, is said to have expressed himself as follows concerning the “disproportion and inequality of the distribution of the things of this life”:  “What an inequitable thing it is for one man to have thousands and another want bread! The pleasure of God is that all men should have enough, and not that one man should abound in this world’s goods, spending it upon lusts, and another man (of far better deserts and far more useful to the commonwealth) not to be worth twopence.” He wishes that“there was neither pale, hedge, nor ditch in the whole nation”, and says that“the world shall never be well until all things be common”.It would not by any means be“such difficulty as men make it to be to alter the course of the world in this thing; a very few diligent and valiant spirits may turn the world upside down if they observe the seasons and shall with life and courage engage accordingly”. To the objection that this would upset all and every Government, he answered:“There would then be less need of Government; for then there would be no thieves, no covetous persons, no deceiving and abuse of one another, and so no need of Government. If any difference do fall out, take a cobbler from his seat, or any other tradesman that is an honest and just man, and let him hear the case and determine the same, and then betake himself to his work again.” Have not these sentiments a decidedly modern ring about them?}  https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/bernstein/works/1895/cromwell/08-atheist.htm Perhaps of pissed off simple commodity producing proto Proudhonist literate Artisans?   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Walwyn

[Dave B]

Yet more reading material!  Communism in Central Europein the Time of the Reformation, Karl Kautsky 1897. “…..they found what they were seeking in another product of Roman society – the Gospels. The traditional communism of primitive Christianity was well suited to their own necessities. As the foundations of a higher order of communistic production were not yet laid, theirs could only be an equalising communism; which meant the division and distribution of the rich man’s superfluity among the poor who were destitute of the necessaries of life.  The communistic doctrines of the Gospels and Acts of the Apostles did not create the analogous tendencies of the Middle Ages, but they favoured the growth and dissemination of the latter quite as much as the Roman law aided the development of absolutism and the bourgeoisie. Hence the Christian and religious basis of the communistic tendencies.” https://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsky/1897/europe/ch01.htm#s3 I. The Papacy the Centre of the Attacks of Heretical Communism “NOTHING can be more erroneous than the widespread idea that communism is antagonistic to the existence of man-antagonistic indeed to human nature itself. This is not the case. Communism dates from the childhood of the race, and has been the social foundation of almost all nations, even to the present day………………… ……………..The most salient feature of the communism of the twelfth century is that antagonism to the Papal power, which lent to the movement an ever-increasing heretical character. It was almost imperative for those who had the interest of the poor at heart to rebel against the PapalChurch, standing as it did in the front rank of the propertied classes of the Middle Ages. It was the wealthiest and the greatest among the exploiters, and held sway over the whole social life of the times, intellectually as well as economically.  https://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsky/1897/europe/ch01.htm  the book; https://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsky/1897/europe/index.htm  Something must have sparked off all this kind of 'Essence of Christianity'  and human nature/social instinct stuff .  And the Johnny come lately’s Rosa and John Connelly etc I think it was an oh shit, Darwin and Feuerbach!, we was right in 1844 before Stirner threw us of track.

[Anonymous]

It is worth bearing in mind that, for all the inequalities of pre-Reformation society, medieval Catholic morality (which More and Erasmus espoused) stressed co-operation and mutual aid, "good deeds" and almsgiving, in accordance with the Epistle of St. James. Indeed, all were expected to actively participate in such.  The Reformation brought to power the "faith-is-all-that-matters" type of Christianity, which accorded very well, by contrast, with the rising class of capitalists, whose sole duty is to profit. This also later suited very well England`s "national capitalist" the Tudor monarchy and the Enclosures, which would eventually create the propertyless proletariat in ever larger numbers as time progressed.More`s socialistic views as expressed in Utopia are to be understood in connection with his catholicism and his well-grounded anxiety over the direction matters would take following the break up of medieval Christendom.

[Dave B]

I think those Kautsky books were part of a four volume series called the Forerunners of Modern Socialism. https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1895/letters/95_05_21.htm Parts of it, and apparently good bits, have not yet been translated in English, and I think Lafarge also contributed to some of it?  The Taborites of circa 1420 Bohemia seem to even predate More, Thomas Müntzer  and Whinstanley etc Eg this chapter. https://www.marxists.org/archive/kautsky/1897/europe/ch02b.htm From a Marxist historical materialist perspective you might be able to argue that similar socio-economic/material circumstances ie the emergence of “proto-capitalism” was producing similar ideological reactions. Even in feudalism as far as the labourers were concerned I think there had been an ideological /cultural heritage of a kind of commune and communistic mode of production. Even if a feudal ruling class and merchants were creaming stuff off the top as a kind of Mafia like extortion system. Originally I think the warrior and priest class was supposed to just be a matter of divison of labour in an otherwise communistically organised society. I also think you might find a parallel with this kind of thing with the celebration and eulogising of the Russian ‘communist’ Mir system at the end of the 19thcentury? Although it looks like the western European expressions of communistic stuff seems to have been originating out of the ‘artisan’ communities? I think you might be able to say the same thing about the first 150+ years of early Christianity itself including JC and even maybe most of his gang. As you peer into the past there seems to no end to it; so there were also these guys from the 10thcentury.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogomilism It is all the more surprising given the attempts to wipe all this stuff from the pages of history. They seem to be connected to these people; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catharism  Christian Gnosticism covered a huge spectrum of theological positions. But what seemed to unify it was the position that JC’s dad was not responsible or in total control of all the shit that went on. That covered the material world but more importantly perhaps for us the socio economic status of the ruling class who were merely puppets of Satan like our manufacturing consent Fox News and media are etc etc. That didn’t go down very well with an increasingly institutionalised Christianity that needed to apologise and justify an exploitative ruling class. That kind off Gnosticism from the historical records doesn’t look like some kind of fringe Christianity given the  ranting attacks on it from many of the surviving material from the early church fathers etc. It is kind of backed up by archaeological evidence as well as a lot of the really old Christian material dug up in the deserts of the middle-east etc and actually is itself from before AD 300; is ‘Gnostic’ in that sense. The Gnostic idea is quite modern and current in a way given Stephen Fry’s God as “utterly evil, capricious and monstrous” http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2015/feb/01/stephen-fry-god-evil-maniac-irish-tv The Gnostics would have said as well that the being that created this world was “utterly evil, capricious and monstrous” ergo; it was Satan. Related to that and all the real Obama ‘arm twisting’ shit in the Old Testament, Marcionism which was another major current in early 2ndcentury Christianity thought the Old Testament God was a wanker as well.  Somebody told me there was a major ‘communist type’ peasant revolt thing in Turkeycirca 1300’s ?  I think that the pre 13thcentury roman catholic monastic system still in some places paid lip service to the idea of ‘commune’ based production systems.Part of the Thomas More 'paternalism'? You could, Tran-historically, say perhaps that having originated out of a ‘Christian’ ie Bolshevik ‘communistic’ ideology it degenerated into a bureaucratic caste system of catholic state capitalism. I remember reading something Lafargue wrote on state socialism which he compared theoretically to monastic catholic system of production! Before we get carried away with Thomas More as the patron Saint of communism; I think he was a Bolshevik. 

[rodshaw]

It depends greatly on whose version of history you like, but, Utopia apart, wasn't More just an arch-conservative who felt insecure about the changes afoot? Principled he might have been, but he was, after all, responsible for a fair number of torturings of those nasty heretics.The fictionalised Mantel view is poles apart from the fictionalised Robert Bolt view. How close can we get to the 'true' view, if there is one?

[Author]

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