The Reformation and the Rise of the Nation State
April 2026 › Forums › General discussion › The Reformation and the Rise of the Nation State
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Thomas_More.
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April 18, 2026 at 5:51 pm #263659
Thomas_More
ParticipantI would agree with you about British industrial capitalism.
April 18, 2026 at 6:11 pm #263660Thomas_More
ParticipantGoogle: ” The 12th-century Renaissance was a period of intense intellectual, social, and artistic revival in Western Europe, acting as a precursor to the Italian Renaissance. It featured the rise of early universities, the translation of Greek and Arabic texts, the growth of Gothic architecture, and a revival of Latin classics, significantly shifting European culture toward scholasticism and humanism.
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Key Characteristics and Developments:
Birth of Universities: Cathedral schools grew into universities, such as in Paris, Oxford, and Bologna, creating new centers of learning.
Intellectual Revival & Translation: A surge in translating Greek and Arabic scientific and philosophical works into Latin occurred, particularly in Spain and Italy, reintroducing thinkers like Aristotle and advancements in medicine.
Literary & Artistic Shifts: The era saw the rise of vernacular literature and the shift from Romanesque to Gothic architecture. Courtly love literature and stories like Arthurian romances became popular.
Scientific Advancement: Increased interest in natural philosophy, mathematics (Euclid), and cosmology, along with the adoption of tools like the compass in trade.
Legal Revival: A rediscovery of Roman law took place, notably the compilation of Justinian’s legal corpus, shaping European legal systems.
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Key Figures and Centers:
Adelard of Bath: A prominent translator of Arabic science.
School of Chartres: A major center for philosophical studies, often focused on humanistic interpretations of cosmology. “April 18, 2026 at 6:18 pm #263661Thomas_More
ParticipantIt was the sacking of the monasteries by Henry VIII and the Reformation which destroyed so much medieval knowledge, including medicine.
It is surmised that all we have left of English medieval literature can be fitted into one cardboard box, thanks to the Reformation!
April 18, 2026 at 8:24 pm #263662Wez
ParticipantAlthough the Saracens were quite shocked when they encountered the Franks for the first time during the early crusades. Their lack of hygiene and general ignorance of medicine together with a rather limited education and a almost maniacal need for violence was an embarrassment for many Muslims. Presumably this was because they had preserved the knowledge of Greek science, medicine and philosophy which much of Europe had lost?
April 18, 2026 at 9:09 pm #263663Thomas_More
ParticipantBy comparison with Arab civilisation, yes, this is true. But the Crusades themselves would bring Arab knowledge back to Europe, and Greek texts in Arabic, translated into Latin.
The Templars provided areas of worship for Muslims, and fellow “Franks” would be punished if they mocked Muslims when not in battle with them. Richard and Saladin were friends, and Saracen nobility recognised as equals in knighthood. The Crusades would bring changes to Europe, including our present numerical system, which replaced the Roman.
With large numbers of people following the armies overland to the Middle East, it is hardly surprising that the westerners arrived in an insalubrious state.
The literature of the time, and particularly the gestes of Wolfram Von Eschenbach, testify to the respect for Saracen nobility. Eschenbach’s Gahmuret, the father of Parzival, fights for a Muslim queen against the Christian crusader king of Scotland in north Africa, while his other hero, Willehalm, has a Muslim lover whom he adores.
In the long poem Flamenca, the Occitan writer points to an unkempt, bearded brute of a husband as being like a Greek of the kind encountered during the Crusades, so propaganda goes both ways.
Both Templars and Hospitallers were formed to provide succour for the hordes of western pilgrims and followers of the armies to the Middle East, and these monastic orders established hospitals along the pilgrim routes and back home.
April 18, 2026 at 9:24 pm #263664Thomas_More
ParticipantEuropeans would really stink and rot later, in the 16th and 17th centuries. Teeth, for instance. Medieval teeth were much healthier in the medieval period than later, after sugar came in heavily in the Elizabethan age.
As long as the harvest didn’t fail, medieval people of all classes ate well, and much better than after the enclosures, when the former peasants had nothing but famine and deprivation ahead.
From being the arboreal-abundant, garden-abundant and brightly painted towns of the 12th century as described by visitors to Henry II’s London, the towns and cities of the post-Reformation centuries would transform more and more into cesspits of disease, reaching the ultimate in poverty and filth during Britain’s industrial revolution.
April 19, 2026 at 10:17 am #263669Thomas_More
ParticipantGoogle:
” Contrary to popular myth, the Middle Ages were not entirely filthy, but hygiene was inconsistent and varied by class. While cities were notoriously unsanitary and lacked waste management, medieval people actually valued cleanliness and bathed regularly when water and fuel were available, often using soap.
Bathing and Hygiene: People often washed their hands and faces daily. While some later medieval views suggested excessive bathing opened pores to disease, regular washing was common in the earlier period. Soap was used, and for many, bathing was a regular activity.”
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Incidentally, in western Europe, a “Greek” meant an unkempt and filthy person.
Table manners were also very important, since eating was a social activity. Throwing bones over one’s shoulder is pure Hollywood.
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This reply was modified 5 hours, 51 minutes ago by
Thomas_More.
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Thomas_More.
April 19, 2026 at 10:49 am #263671h.moss@swansea.ac.uk
ParticipantInteresting stuff, Thomas. Thanks
April 19, 2026 at 11:29 am #263675Thomas_More
ParticipantThank you. It was always in the interest of the British education system to present the Reformation, which would create the nation-state, as a great “liberation.” The continual adulation of Elizabeth I in movies etc., the use of her image as a national treasure, and the old narrative, still repeated, that the Reformation and the Renaissance dragged us out of the medieval mire.
The recent glorification of Thomas Cromwell, Henry VIII’s thug henchman, is part of this too.After all, this was the origin of the ruling class that still owns the land today, and it was the origin of “the nation” we are supposed to be “proud” of.
It is much easier to repeat the old narrative of a “Middle Age” of dormancy between ancient and modern “civilisation”, but so much now proves that to be nonsense.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Jones%27_Medieval_Lives
“The main reason I wanted to make Medieval Lives was to get my own back on the Renaissance. It’s not that the Renaissance has ever done me any harm personally, you understand. It’s just that I’m sick of the way people’s eyes light up when they start talking about the Renaissance. I’m sick of the way art critics tend to say: ‘Aaaah! The Renaissance!’ with that deeply self-satisfied air of someone who is at last getting down to the ‘Real Thing’. And I’m sick to death of that ridiculous assumption that before the Renaissance human beings had no sense of individuality.”
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Thomas_More.
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April 19, 2026 at 11:44 am #263678Thomas_More
ParticipantOther great series and books:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Jones%27_Barbarians
Except Terry is mistaken in assuming the Catholic Church of the early Middle Age to be the same as the “Roman Catholic” Church. This did not exist as a separate entity until 1054.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dark_Ages:_An_Age_of_Light
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April 19, 2026 at 1:12 pm #263688Thomas_More
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