Israel, Gaza and the realities of capitalism

June 2024 Forums General discussion Israel, Gaza and the realities of capitalism

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 38 total)
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  • #102416
    Dave
    Participant

    Can the Israeli working class play an important role in the overthrow of the Israeli state? Can they do so in co operation with their Palestinian brothers and sisters? I woud say yes to both questions while the majority of the left in the UK refuses to see the Israeli working class playing any progressive role in the current period.  

    #102417
    jondwhite
    Participant

    The workers have no country. We cannot take from them what they have not got. Since the proletariat must first of all acquire political supremacy, must rise to be the leading class of the nation, must constitute itself the nation, it is, so far, itself national, though not in the bourgeois sense of the word.As the communist manifesto puts it

    #102418
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    Dave wrote:
    Can the Israeli working class play an important role in the overthrow of the Israeli state? Can they do so in co operation with their Palestinian brothers and sisters? I woud say yes to both questions while the majority of the left in the UK refuses to see the Israeli working class playing any progressive role in the current period.  

    Nation States  exist to protect the interests of the residing capitalist class. Workers have no country and the working class of Israel and Gaza should refuse to kill each other over countries they will never own or have any control over. How the workers would do this today in the abscence of class consciousness is another matter. I can only say that as a class conscious member of the working class I would refuse to engage in this butchery.The only solution is an increase in awareness of the nature of capitalism.Edit:  and the building of a world socialist movement

    #102419
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    FAO Vin and Steve and any other Mackems lurkingAnti-Gaza War RallySaturday 16 August 2.30pm High Street West(outside Marks&Spencer & McDonald's)Sunderland SR1

    #102420
    Anonymous
    Inactive
    alanjjohnstone wrote:
    FAO Vin and Steve and any other Mackems lurkingAnti-Gaza War RallySaturday 16 August 2.30pm High Street West(outside Marks&Spencer & McDonald's)Sunderland SR1

     Thanks for that, Alan. Linda and I are always at that Marks & Spencers, so I will have a look down, A Lurking Mackem 

    #102421
    SocialistPunk
    Participant

    That event is something I would seriously consider attending if it weren't for my physical issues these days. It would be great if a party member or two could get in there with some leaflets addressing a few of the issues from a socialist standpoint.On a Tory party political note, Tory cabinet member Warsi, has resigned from the cabinet in protest about the governments refusal to condemn Israel's violent actions in Gaza.Now the question I would ask, did she not know the Tory policy on Israel before she got into the cabinet, for crying out loud.? What planet has she been living on all these years? The Tories under Thatcher and Major where supporting Israel, so was the Blair government. Will she now leave the Tory party? I doubt if she has that much of a conscience. 

    #102422
    Anonymous
    Inactive

    Just read this crap on the World Socialist Website(http://www.wsws.org/). Hope we don't get confused them. The article isn't that bad but ends in this confusing rubbish: Nowhere is the necessity for the international unity of the working class and the struggle for socialism as stark as in the Middle East. The solution to the catastrophe created by capitalism and the nation-state system is the abolition of both, through the establishment of the United Socialist States of the Middle East, as part of the fight for world socialist revolution.The strategic task of the hour is the fight to build sections of the International Committee of the Fourth International, the world Trotskyist movement, as the new leadership of the working class and the oppressed masses.The WSWS International Editorial Board

    #102423
    SocialistPunk
    Participant

    The usual bullshit of leading the masses to freedom.

    #102424

    This article if fascinating:http://theconversation.com/my-time-in-israeli-defence-force-tells-me-the-level-of-casualties-in-gaza-is-avoidable-30133Although the call is, ultimately, for a more refined butchery (changes to the rules of engagement) it comes from an authoritative source.

    Quote:
    There’s no reason to think the Israelis couldn’t change their rules, though. We have international conventions banning, for instance, the use of chemical weapons in war, so it is possible, I believe, to also prohibit the use of heavy artillery, big bombs and cruel procedures in densely populated areas such as the Gaza Strip. After all, it is also in Israel’s interest, as the horrific pictures coming out of the Gaza Strip ruin the country’s already tarnished reputation.

      He notes that the IDF are dropping 250-1,000 kg bombs on Gaza.  Last I checked, the payload of the rockets Hamas are chucking out are about 10kg (in ethical terms, neither here nor there, but the different is a brick wall is likely to protect you from a 90 kilo bomb at about 10 metres).  As Wikipedia notes the Hamas rockets cost about €500 each to make, so just by launching them, and forcing Israel to spend millions shooting them down, they are inflicting a significant cost on Israel.  Such is the harsh logic of war.Thus, the article's suggestion that the bombing campaign is about trying to rive a wedge between Hamas and the population of Gaza is interesting.  That would mean Israel reckons the cost of this offensive is less than the drain of fighting off Hamas' rockets.

    #102425
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    http://www.countercurrents.org/silver050814.htmA distressing article about atrocities by the Israeli army.Human Right Watch is one of the more "moderate" NGOs often accused of pro-western bias, so it is more telling that they are reporting such stories. 

    #102426

    and while Israel, strangely, gets all the headline:http://www.ipsnews.net/2014/07/refugees-living-a-nightmare-in-northern-pakistan/

    Quote:
    [Internall Displaced Persons] have been streaming in since the military operation began on Jun. 15, reaching close to a million by mid-July, officials here say. So far, aid has come in the form of food rations and medical supplies for the wounded, as well as those left dehydrated by the scorching 45-degree heat.

    Pakistani generals are claiming no civilians killed:http://www.criticalthreats.org/pakistan/jan-gauging-success-nwa-operation-july-25-2014This may, though, be the old trick of labelling everyone killed a terrorist.This is just a coincidence of live fire, there are other hotspots like Israel/Palestine with sporadic slaughter as a continuing feature, and these do not get half an inch as much coverage.  Anyone remember the fate of the Tamil Tigers?

    #102427
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    You are right YMS. There is Syria, Iraq, Nigeria, Ukraine..and that is not a full comprehensive list… all with stories of tragedy that don't make the headlines and still ongoing. i don't think there is enough foreign correspondents or camera teams to cover all the places.  And Australia Immigration certainly has forgotten ….or would like to forget …the Tamils who they have deported back to Sri Lanka.

    #102428
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster

    A frightening speculation from the liberal Israeli newspaper Haaretz. Gaza is merely a dry run practice for an future offensive against Hezbullah in Lebanon http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/.premium-1.609331

    #102429
    SocialistPunk
    Participant

    Alan, the link you posted is a subscription site. Any chance of giving a quick rundown of the story?This link was provided by Hallblithe on another thread. Could explain the situation.http://www.theguardian.com/environment/earth-insight/2014/jul/09/israel-war-gaza-palestine-natural-gas-energy-crisis

    #102430
    alanjjohnstone
    Keymaster
    Quote:
    Using Gaza lessons to prepare for next Hezbollah war Sober reflection indicates that the capabilities the army displayed against Hamas will need an upgrade if better results are to be obtained in Lebanon. By Amos Harel | Aug. 7, 2014 | 6:43 AM When Golani Brigade fighters suffered multiple losses during a fierce battle with Hamas in Gaza City’s Shujaiyeh neighborhood on July 20, the air force hastened to the rescue. Within 50 minutes, planes had struck 126 targets, most with one-ton bombs. With permission, the pilots dropped some of these bombs less than 250 meters (800 feet) from the ground troops, a risk that shocked veteran pilots when they heard about it later. Yet not one soldier was hurt. Throughout the operation in Gaza, cooperation between the ground forces and the air force was much closer than it was in the past. There was no repeat of the charges leveled during the Second Lebanon War of 2006, that the air force had neglected the ground troops. The planes were at little risk from anti-aircraft fire; the main problem was trying to minimize civilian casualties while bombing targets located in dense urban areas. This challenge only grew tougher as the fighting progressed, since as the ground troops advanced deeper into these built-up areas, the dangers they faced escalated. Aerial bombing is the first stage of every major Israeli military operation. Preparing for ground maneuvers takes longer, for two reasons. The first has to do with decision-making. It doesn’t matter how many times the politicians and generals tell us they have learned from past mistakes and know the IDF has no time to waste; they will still always agonize over whether to send in ground troops and risk the attendant casualties. The second is the time needed to organize. While air force planes can take off within minutes, ground forces have to travel to the staging area, be issued necessary equipment and be briefed on operational plans. That’s true even for regular troops, and doubly so for reservists. The IDF’s initial assumption was that a series of gradually escalating strikes on Hamas assets would reduce its desire to fight and spur it to quickly accept a cease-fire. That assumption didn’t exactly work out. In part, this could be due to the differences between Gaza and Lebanon, which is the principle theater for which the IDF has prepared. Both Hezbollah and the Lebanese government have bigger assets to lose: Beirut’s Dahiyeh neighborhood, where Hezbollah is headquartered, and major civilian infrastructure like the Beirut airport, highways and power stations. Hamas’s assets in Gaza are much smaller, and unlike in Lebanon, there’s no chance of driving a wedge between it and the government, because Hamas is the government. Still, it’s possible that the destruction Gaza suffered will help restrain Hamas from starting another war. If another war breaks out with Hezbollah, the firepower the IDF used in Gaza will look tiny by comparison. A war in Lebanon would be more intensive from the outset: Nobody plans to start off by attacking empty buildings, as was done in Gaza. This is because Hezbollah’s rocket arsenal is incomparably more advanced than that of Hamas. Its rockets are far more precise, carry much bigger warheads and are capable of striking anywhere in Israel, and it has more than 100,000 of them. Facing such a threat, antimissile systems like Iron Dome will be less effective. The nine existing Iron Dome batteries were plenty to minimize the damage caused by rockets from Gaza. Dealing with Hezbollah’s rockets would require more batteries, as well as the Magic Wand system for intercepting medium-range missiles, which is still in development, and perhaps even the Arrow antimissile system for long-range missiles. The Israeli home front would suffer heavy damage, so the government wouldn’t be able to wait. It would have to respond harshly from the first moment. The Second Lebanon War, and the preparations for a third, are the proper context in which to evaluate the war in Gaza. Despite all the differences, there are important similarities between Lebanon in 2006 and Gaza in 2014: the hesitation over the operation’s direction, the fear of casualties in a ground operation, the fact that the war ended without a victory and the understanding that another round is possible. Moreover, it’s clear that Hezbollah is following events in the south and learning the lessons. If there’s one thing senior IDF officers agree on, it’s that Hezbollah and its Iranian advisers are good at studying, analyzing and drawing conclusions.Whether Israel really hurt Hamas as badly as it claims and how much deterrence it has achieved will become clear only later. Meanwhile, it makes sense to assume that Hezbollah has also dug attack tunnels under the border, even if the IDF hasn’t yet found proof of this. After all, Hezbollah dug defensive tunnels very close to the border even before the 2006 war. In April, Haaretz reported that Hezbollah seemed to be acting more aggressively than at any other point since 2006. The army journal Maarachot recently quoted an intelligence colonel as saying that when Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah threatens to “conquer the Galilee,” this may reflect a plan to open the next war by an incursion into Israel. Given Israel’s experience in Gaza over the last month, it’s safe to assume that tunnels will also figure in any northern scenario. With the cease-fire in Gaza apparently holding, a clear gap has emerged between the public’s feeling that Israel didn’t win and the pride senior officers involved in the fighting are taking in their troops’ achievements. It’s true that the soldiers fought well and completed their assigned mission of destroying the tunnels. But it would be a mistake to attach too much importance to this success. Ultimately, the IDF deployed 10 brigades for more than two weeks without advancing more than two or three kilometers from the border. What is important now is for the army to focus on learning the war’s lessons. Unfortunately, the IDF often has trouble investigating itself: When senior officers’ careers are on the line, few are willing to be completely open. The blame-free inquiries used in the air force and some other elite units don’t seem to have penetrated to the rest of the army. After the Second Lebanon War, the IDF appointed more than 50 inquiry committees. But the quality of the results varied widely, and some key inquiries were never completed at all. Sober reflection indicates that the capabilities the army displayed against Hamas will need an upgrade if better results are to be obtained against Hezbollah. Even if the Shi’ite organization now seems preoccupied with other fronts – Lebanon’s own problems, the Syrian civil war and, most recently, the Islamic State’s seizure of parts of Iraq from the Shi’ite-led government – events can change suddenly. After all, few people predicted that the IDF would spend this summer intercepting rockets and hunting tunnels in Gaza.
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