Hong Kong
- This topic has 637 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 6 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
To return to the topic, in an earlier post TS suggested that I was paranoid to suggest that as a foreign national in another country I could be subject to the Security Law.
I was actually guilty not of paranoia but the grandiose opinion of myself that a lowly blogger such as myself would be on their radar.
But the essence of my claim remains valid,
The National Security Law does indeed assert international jurisdiction over non-Chinese citizens.
The UK’s official advice warns of “a risk for those who commit an offence under the law of being detained and removed to mainland China. The legislation states that [national security] offences apply to activities conducted both inside and outside Hong Kong, which in practice could include activities conducted in the UK. China’s mainland authorities could under certain circumstances detain and try individuals who commit an offence, or are accused of committing an offence, under the terms of this law.”
I am not protected by those nations that have now stated they would not comply with an extradition request
What has state capitalist developing Russia got to do with socialism?
What has mixed state- private capitalist China have to do with socialism?
* Marxism
Indeed, it is a tragedy of world-historical proportions that Marx has been Leninized – what is basically a method of social analysis with a view to taking informed political action by the working class, has had its name put to a state ideology of repression of the working class.Instead of being known as a tool for working class self-emancipation, we have had the abomination of ‘Marxist states’.
Above * from https://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/publications/an-a-to-z-of-marxism/#MSocialism would have been in a much better stand without the Soviet Union, without Leninism and without the so called socialist countries and their leaders such as Stalin, mao, Lenin, Trotsky , Castro, Guevara, hoxha, Kim I’ll sing, ho Chi min Chávez and maduro and all the other that I left out which has been representative of state capitalism similar to the others from others capitalist countries
TS suggests “There was no “alliance” between the Soviet Union and Germany only a non-aggression pact. Almost every country in Europe had a non-aggression pact with Germany including France and Britain (The Munich Agreement) and Poland (the German-Polish Non-Aggression Pact)“.
However there is no mention of:
German–Soviet Commercial Agreement, signed on August 19, 1939 to deliver commodities (oil, raw materials and grain) to the value of 420 to 430 million Reichsmarks.
This involved the delivery to the Nazis by the USSR of the following:1939 1940 1941
(1st 6 months) Soviet
figures
(September 1939 – 1941)Oil Products 5.1 617.0 254.2 941.7
Grains 0.2 820.8 547.1 1611.1
Manganese ore 6.2 64.8 75.2 165.2
Phosphates 32.3 131.5 56.3 202.2
oils & fats 4.4 11.0 8.9 NA
Chromium 0.0 26.3 0.0 23.4
Copper 0..0 7.1 7.2 NA
Nickel 0.0 1.5 0.7 NA
Legumes 10.9 47.2 34.8 NA
Tin 0.0 0.8 0.0 NA
Platinum 0.0 1.5 1.3 NA
Chemicals:
Finished 0.9 2.9 0.2 NA
Chemicals:
Unfinished 0.9 2.6 1.0 NA
Raw Textiles 9.0 99.1 41.1 171.4
Wood Products 171.9 846.7 393.7 1227.6
Oil Cake 0.0 29.0 8.6 41.8
*thousands of tonsMaterials Germany imported from other countries using the Soviet Trans-Siberian Railway and from Afghanistan and Iran via the Soviet Union as an intermediary, included
1939 1940 1941
(1st 5 mos.)
Rubber NA 4.5 14.3
Copper NA 2.0 2.8
Soybeans NA 58.5 109.4
Whale &
Fish oil NA 56.7 46.2
Nuts NA 9.3 12.1
Tinned
Food NA 5.0 3.8
Textiles 0.0 19.0 17.0
Legumes 0 7.0 2.0
Dried
fruit 8.0 42.0 8.0
*thousands of tonsEricson, Edward E. (1999), Feeding the German Eagle: Soviet Economic Aid to Nazi Germany, 1933–1941, Greenwood Publishing Group, ISBN 0-275-96337-3
It is also well established that Stailn had given Molotov the green light to being negotiations to start full negotiations for the USSR to become the fourth member of the Axis and Molotov and Ribbentrop and Hitler took part in initial discussions between both sides took place on 12-14th November 1940
Nekrich, Aleksandr Moiseevich; Ulam, Adam Bruno; Freeze, Gregory L. (1997), Pariahs, Partners, Predators: German–Soviet Relations, 1922–1941, Columbia University Press, ISBN 0-231-10676-9
The Soviet Union was a charitable institution they did not produce any commodity and no surplus value The law of value was not applicable to them Stalin wrote that there were not social classes in the soviets union, the proletarian class vanished from the society
It is not mentioned that Stalin admired Ford and he applied Ford assembly line to speed production, to produce more and to obtain more profits from the Russian workers
Don’t worry TS, it’s all just anti Soviet propaganda. Uncle Joe was only interested in the proletariat. No surplus value there, no Nazi collaboration, it’s all “fake news” (copywrite Donald Trump)
I think the crucial point is, did they jointly invade and the answer is no.
Germany invaded on the 1st of September. The USSR on the 17th.
The Soviet Union was still at war with Japan until the 15th.
On 5 September 1939 the German Ambassador Friedrich Werner von der Schulenburg asked about the deployment of the Red Army into Poland, Molotov answered that the Soviet government “will definitely have to…start specific actions” at the right time. “But we believe that this moment has not yet come” and “any haste may ruin things and facilitate the rallying of opponents”.
On the 17th the war against Germany was still ongoing and far from over. But now facing two invading armies, the Poles eventually surrendered on the 6th Oct.
In that period, did the German and Soviet armies cooperate in the field? Yes.
On the 28th of September, the German–Soviet Boundary and Friendship Treaty was signed and confirmed the secret protocol of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact which I have mentioned previously.
When Germany invaded in 1941, Polish-Soviet relations were re-established until the Katyn Massacre was uncovered.
Those who insist upon the innocence of the Soviets, forget a site of another mass killing was also found of Polish prisoners at Mednoye, a location never occupied by the Germans.
https://katyn.miejscapamieci.gov.pl/page/homepage/articles/katyn-mednoye-1940—2000.php?lang=EN
Since we question the scholarship of Furr, TS chose to defer to the authority of a Quora contributor, an even less authoritative source.
I tried to read Furr on Trotsky and got over half way through it. Much of the start of his work concentrates upon what defines as evidence. Since he has no smoking gun to say Trotsky and others were operating with the German and Japanese intelligence departments to actually engage in criminal acts such as murder and sabotage he relies upon interpretation and inferences.
I came across this observation on Wiki
Historian Taner Akçam states that denialism is commonly believed to be negation of facts, but in fact “it is in that nebulous territory between facts and truth where such denialism germinates. Denialism marshals its own facts and it has its own truth.”
But once again the ideas of ourselves are not reliant on Stalin or Bukharin or Trotsky.
We have the example of the Treaty of Rapallo in 1923 as another example of duplicitous diplomacy between enemies.
“However there is no mention of:
German–Soviet Commercial Agreement”A trade agreement is NOT an alliance. The USSR was forced to trade with the Nazis because they were sanctioned by “the allies” (Britain and The US). In return for supplies sent to Germany the Soviets received advanced weapons technology from the Nazis.
“It is also well established that Stailn had given Molotov the green light to being negotiations to start full negotiations for the USSR to become the fourth member of the Axis”
Bullshit.
Extract from Alan message:
I think the crucial point is, did they jointly invade and the answer is no.
____________________________________________________________________________
The question is not if they invade jointly, the question is the negation that the soviet did not invade Poland. Real historians, no Stalinist charlatan claimed that it was in two separated dates and also they have published photos showing German soldiers, and Russian soldier in Poland and they were not tourists. Obama said that the USA did not invade Libya because they were just shooting from a warshipTrotsky was a stone in the shoes of Stalin and Stalin was a stone in the shoes of Trotsky, both were fighting for the same thing, we have an articles titled; Trotsky and Stalin rival leaders, and the article clearly explain that they only have two different management style of how to exploit the workers and how to expand the Russian capitalism.
They can write hundred of books on both leaders and they never hit the target because it is an analysis based on personalities
Russian and German soldiers doing tourism in Poland
A trade agreement is NOT an alliance. The USSR was forced to trade with the Nazis because they were sanctioned by “the allies” (Britain and The US). In return for supplies sent to Germany the Soviets received advanced weapons technology from the Nazis.
—————————————————————-
Therefore, we must write a new book on International law, therefore Mexico is an ally of the USA, Mercosur is not alliance between some South American countries,UNASUR and pacific alliance is not an alliance, the alliance between China, Rusia and Venezuela is not alliance.
If they were based on the concept of socialism in one country, they were self sufficient, therefore, a blockade would not have affected them. Albania broke relationship with the Soviet Union, China, USA, England and Germany based on the same conception and they isolated themselves, which that socialism in one country is a pure fallacy created by the Bolsheviks.
The Nazis received raw material to build their war machine, and then the same weapons were used against the Soviet Union, they did not need coper, iron, and others metal to manufacture toys, they need it to build tanks, airplanes, destroyers and submarine
“I think the crucial point is, did they jointly invade and the answer is no.”
The Soviets never invaded Poland.
“On 5 September 1939 the German Ambassador Friedrich Werner von der Schulenburg asked about the deployment of the Red Army into Poland, Molotov answered that the Soviet government “will definitely have to…start specific actions” at the right time. “But we believe that this moment has not yet come” and “any haste may ruin things and facilitate the rallying of opponents”.
Indeed, stringing the Germans along whilst having no intention of invading Poland. Which mind you, the Soviets had every right to do, given that the Poles had sought to enter the Axis alliance.
“Negotiations for Poland to join the Axis broke down over the status of Gdansk/Danzig, a Prussian city that had just elected a National Socialist government. Danzig had been severed from Germany by the Versailles Treaty in hopes that it would weaken Prussia, seen by most of Europe as the core of German militarism.”
Moreover, the “Polish” territory that the Soviets occupied had been stolen from them in 1921.
“On the 17th the war against Germany was still ongoing and far from over. But now facing two invading armies, the Poles eventually surrendered on the 6th Oct.”
False. The Soviets didn’t occupy former Polish territory (stolen from the USSR in 1921) until after the cowardly Polish government interned themselves in Rumania. Armies are only legitimate in service of a state. There was no longer a Polish state. The cowards in the interned government failed to inform segments of their former army of their perfidy. These troops now had no legal standing and were effectively an armed mob.
The League of Nations, bound to act against aggression took no action against the USSR because they did not consider them to have invaded anybody. And Britain did not declare war against the Soviet Union as was its obligation had they thought the Soviets had invaded.
“In that period, did the German and Soviet armies cooperate in the field? Yes.”
What does “cooperate” mean? Joint military operations against the Polish army? If so, completely false.
“On the 28th of September, the German–Soviet Boundary and Friendship Treaty was signed and confirmed the secret protocol of the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact which I have mentioned previously.”
The so-called “Secret Protocol” was no such thing. Churchill refers to the “protocol” two weeks after its signing in his “mystery wrapped in an enigma” speech. Stalin also shared knowledge of the agreement with the leaders of the Baltic states.
“When Germany invaded in 1941, Polish-Soviet relations were re-established until the Katyn Massacre was uncovered.”
The Katyn black propaganda operation originates with Goebbels. The Nazis had just lost in Stalingrad. Three months later, in an effort to divide the allies, the Nazis suddenly “discover” mass graves in the surrounds of Katyn. All the corpses killed with German ammunition no less. If you believe Goebbels then your brain is broken.
“Since we question the scholarship of Furr,”
You are not qualified to question Grover Furr’s scholarship.
“TS chose to defer to the authority of a Quora contributor, an even less authoritative source.”
The Quora contributor simply references the actual Nazi documents proving there was no joint “invasion” of Poland. They are unquestionably authentic and you can read them all for yourself online.
“I tried to read Furr on Trotsky and got over half way through it. Much of the start of his work concentrates upon what defines as evidence. Since he has no smoking gun to say Trotsky and others were operating with the German and Japanese intelligence departments to actually engage in criminal acts such as murder and sabotage he relies upon interpretation and inferences.”
That’s what historians do don’t you know?
“We have the example of the Treaty of Rapallo in 1923 as another example of duplicitous diplomacy between enemies.”
I fail to see what point is being made here.
International Affairs (Royal Institute of International Affairs 1944-)
Vol. 87, No. 3 (May 2011), pp. 709-715 (7 pages)“In 1989 the Soviet authorities officially denounced the Molotov—Ribbentrop pact of August 1939 as illegal and void and for the first time admitted the existence of a secret protocol providing for a division on territorial spheres of influence.”
“the full text of the German-Soviet Friendship Treaty of 28 September, demarcating the final frontier between the two invading powers [and the] entirely separate joint declaration of the same date which
referred to the ‘dissolution of the Polish State’ and called on Britain and France to conduct peace talks with Germany. Should they fail to do so, the statement went on, then this would prove that Britain and France ‘bore the responsibility for the continuation of the war”But, blame where blame is due:
“it may be mentioned that in August 1941, Britain and the Soviet Union jointly invaded and occupied Iran, partly in order to pre-empt a possible Nazi seizure of its strategically vital oil fields (a fact more widely remembered in Iran than in the West.)”Stalin was a gangster, he played a gangster’s game.
Of course, this being the 21st Century, we can read the German-Soviet Friendship pact:
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/gsbound.asp(True Scotsman doesn’t trust Wikisources, but I hope he’ll forgive this source for the map annexed to the pact:
)“providing for a division on territorial spheres of influence”
A “sphere on of influence” not “partition”.
Churchill mentions the arrangement in his October 1, 1939 speech saying…
“When Herr von Ribbentropp was summoned to Moscow last week it was to learn the fact, and to accept the fact, that the Nazi designs upon the Baltic States and upon the Ukraine must come to a dead stop.”
This a direct reference to the spheres of influence that the USSR and Germany had agreed upon. So, it was hardly a secret.
Churchill’s WW2 Speech to the Nation October 1939
The sphere of influence meant Germany could not enter that territory without coming into military conflict with the USSR. Stalin inserted the provision into the pact so that the Polish government could seek refuge under Soviet protection and reestablish operations. The Polish government, cowardly traitors that they were, fled into internment in Rumania instead. The Polish government was the only government to flee into voluntary internment throughout the entire war. By doing so they ensured the country of Poland ceased to exist.
“Stalin was a gangster, he played a gangster’s game.”
BS. He, and the heroic Soviet Union are the only reason you probably even exist right now.
- The topic ‘Hong Kong’ is closed to new replies.