Hong Kong
- This topic has 637 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 2 years, 6 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
“China IS in effect a one-party authoritarian state.”
All states are authoritarian. Are you that politically naive as to think otherwise? Do tell me, how is the working class to wrest control of society from the bourgeoisie without a resort to authoritarianism? You just gonna ask them pretty please to give up their position in the hierarchy?
“True, there are on paper 8 other small political parties but…They are fronts for the purpose of window dressing the regime as something less dictatorial than it is actually is.”
Proving you know nothing about the role of the parties even though I went to the effort of providing a a very good link on the subject for your edification. Your ignorance thus, is willful.
“No genuine opposition to the regime is legally permitted and is systemically weeded out of the minor parties by the regime itself”
Perhaps that’s how things work in your fever dreams, talk about solipsism! The reality world is a little different. There’s a huge amount of disagreement that takes place within the Chinese political system. You’d know that if you took anytime whatsoever to examine it. But you are an ideologue. Any information that contradicts the narrative running your brain automatically causes an error alert.
You link to an article by the South China Morning Post on the political opposition. The Post is a Taiwanese publication. Taiwan, the home to the fleeing fascist Kuomintang. (Funny how you people cuddle up to fascists on the regular). You expect people to take the Post’s analysis on this subject seriously? You’re a joker.
“Contrary to what you claim these minor parties play no important role in the government of the country.”
Completely false. Contradicted at length in the linked article. To reiterate, you are willfully ignorant.
“I note you have nothing to say about the active suppression of Marxists by the Chinese authorities”
Because the linked article was nothing but fabulism. It deferred to the above mentioned SCMP and counted as its sources “anonymous” professors “too afraid” to put their names on record. In other words, liars.
“Stop with your craven apologizing for this thoroughly obnoxious anti-democratic and anti-working class regime that is the Chinese state capitalist regime.”
The Chinese working classes support their government. Your opposition to that government is opposition to the working classes themselves. They are not interested in the views of fanatical sectarian snowflakes. They want rising living standards and sovereignty. Thanks to the CCP they have both.
“And, no, opposition to this regime is not in the least “racist””
Yeah, it is. In your view the 96 per cent of the population who support their government are ignorant children, too stupid to know what is in their best interests. You, on the other hand, with your white savior complex believe you can ride in on your white charger and free the dirty hordes from their infantile false consciousness…or something like that, right?
“Unlike you, I am not selective in the capitalist regimes I oppose”
(Yawn.) China’s is a mixed economy with a communist party run government. They are working towards full communism by 2121. Meanwhile your party will remain a steadfast bastion of irrelevancy. Bravo!
Ts wrote:
China is a mixed economy. Marx believed the productive forces of capitalism need to be unleashed before the transition to socialism and communism. True or false?
——————————————————————————————————————-
When Marx and Engels wrote that expression it was during the XVIII century when capitalism only existed in Great Britain and it was emerging in Germany, it was not the predominant economical system of the whole world, and in some places in Europe Feudalism was still the dominant economic system, that is the reason why he created a temporary idea called the Dictatorship of the Proletariat which was only applicable to that historical period.In our time capitalism is the predominant economic system in the whole world, and socialism/communism must be a post-capitalist society from the very beginning.
Socialism and capitalism can not be mixed, they are two opposite systems of production, it was the same idea of Nikita Khrushchev, an idea which was rejected in 1959 in Moscow by Enver Hoxha and Mao Tse Tung. There is a whole pamphlet written by Enver Hoxha dedicated to that concept. The state is the superstructure of the Economic base and it is not detached from the interest of the economy both are interrelated, there is no such thing as a socialist state and capitalist economic base, it totally contradicts the Materialist Concept of History.
In our time we do not need a transitional period, it was Lenin who created the two stages revolution, it was not Marx, The SPGB/WSM has already written about that, it is nothing new for us. There are still leftwinger groups waiting for a bourgeoise revolution when it has already taken place around the world, the bourgeoisie control all the means of production. The Socialist Party only has one single program which is socialism/communism
I don’t think you can tie the shoelaces of Robbo. His writing has been published by Anarchists groups and Left Communists Groups. You should learn from him. This is an anarchist group that has given merit to his writings and ideas, as well they have published some translated works of Adam Buick
http://contraeconomia.blogspot.com/2009/02/el-partido-socialista-de-gran-bretana.html
The SCMP is Hong Kong-based and its parent company is the Alibaba group which is owned by Jack Ma, who is (or was) a member of the CCP. Alibaba had a very friendly relationship with the Chinese authorities although that may not exist as strongly nowadays being considered too large an entity are as many tech companies are around the world. Xi is reining in its economic influence.
Alibaba bought SCMP in 2016 from the Great Wall Pan Asia Holdings, which was co-founded by the Ministry of Finance of the People’s Republic of China. Its predecessor was China Great Wall Asset Management Corporation founded in 1999 under the approval of the State Council of the People’s Republic of China.
https://www.gwpaholdings.com/en/about-us/company-profile/
So when TS describes it as controlled by Taiwan fascists, it is yet another distortion of the actual facts and another example where he wishes to cherry-pick the validity of sources to suit only his narrative.
But you are an ideologue. Any information that contradicts the narrative running your brain automatically causes an error alert.
————————————————————————————-
That is not ideology ( ideologue is an expression used by the USA right-wingers ) and he is not an idealist, ideology was defined by Marx as the distortion of reality, and Engels defined as false conscience, socialist/ communists are against all kinds of ideology and most of them come from idealism. Robbo supports the Materialist Conception of History. The prevailing ideas in any class society are the ideas of the ruling class, and the prevailing ideology in this society is the bourgeoise ideology
“The SCMP is Hong Kong-based and its parent company is the Alibaba group which is owned by Jack Ma”
My bad. Hostile to the mainland nevertheless.
Foxconn is a Taiwanese technological corporation that operates in China and it produces all Apple products and it was under investigation for child labor and some of the workers lived in the factory premises because they did not earn enough money to rent a house or apartment or travel to see their families members.
The Stalinists called Fascists or Nazis to any group that did not agree with them, and both frames of capitalism only existed in Germany and Italy and their main distinction was Extreme Nationalism and apologist of the single-party rule. They continued using the terms after the Nazis and the Fascists were completely defeated. Mao Tse Tung made an alliance with the so-called fascists of Taiwan
I re-edited my earlier post to offer a more nuanced appraisal of the relationship between Jack Ma, Alibaba and the Beijing government which is going through a strain.
https://thediplomat.com/2021/09/the-real-cause-of-chinas-alibaba-crackdown/
But once again TS has to retract a false allegation and to simply assert it is anti-mainland is another distraction. Over recent years it has been sympathetic.
Very good point, MS, about how China is very happy to permit those Taiwanese fascists of Foxconn to do business on the mainland and make profits out of the work of PRC citizens.
Praise for Foxconn’s expansion in the mainland and its relationship with the government
https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202104/1222048.shtml
No need to check, Global Times is a China government news outlet, not part of the anti-China media
Besides tat they signed an agreement with Donald trump to open a factory in the USA
The investment of the USA in infrastructure was larger than their own investment and they had more automation then human workers.
With the money invested the USA government could have open ten factories instead of one making a deal with another so called fascist
The president of china is in friendship with one of the most unpopular presidents of Latin America which is the president of Chile and he had made a fortune from unproven sources but they need the Chilean cooper
TrueScotsman
In response
All states are authoritarian. Are you that politically naive as to think otherwise?
That’s exactly my point, you silly sod. Capitalism is inherently undemocratic and capitalism is worldwide and most definitely includes China. Ergo, the regime there is not democratic and in fact, is even more authoritarian – based on a top-down model of decision making – compared to most other capitalist regimes (that I equally oppose)
Proving you know nothing about the role of the parties even though I went to the effort of providing a very good link on the subject for your edification. Your ignorance thus, is willful.
Sigh. You are an ignoramus if you seriously think the mere existence 8 other minuscule political parties whose leadership is selected by the CCP and whose membership is scrutinized and regulated by the CCP signifies a flourishing political democracy even in bourgeois terms. These so-called minor political parties are only permitted to exist insofar as they defer to the CCP. A movement like the WSM, if it were to operate openly in China, would pretty soon be crushed and outlawed by this obnoxious regime. Our members there have to operate in a climate of secrecy and fear. Get real, TS The Chinese regime has been systematically persecuting Marxists while absurdly claiming allegiance to Marxism
You link to an article by the South China Morning Post on the political opposition. The Post is a Taiwanese publication. Taiwan, the home to the fleeing fascist Kuomintang.
I don’t care what the SCMP is. Are the facts that it provides true or false? That’s all that matters. There are plenty of other sources I could equally quote that come to the same conclusion. It’s rich you talking about fascism when you are an avid supporter of what is, in any case, a semi-fascist state capitalist regime
The Chinese working classes support their government. Your opposition to that government is opposition to the working classes themselves. They are not interested in the views of fanatical sectarian snowflakes. They want rising living standards and sovereignty. Thanks to the CCP they have both.
This only goes to show what a muddlehead you are. The working class in the UK or the US voted in their governments. Therefore, according to your ridiculous logic, we should not be critical of the governments of the UK or the US because to do so would be to express “opposition to the working classes” in these countries. Also, like the typical bourgeois bootlicker you are you attribute the …erm … rising living standards of Chinese workers to the CCP – not the working class that produces the wealth in society.
“And, no, opposition to this regime is not in the least “racist””
Yeah, it is. In your view the 96 per cent of the population who support their government are ignorant children, too stupid to know what is in their best interests. You, on the other hand, with your white savior complex believe you can ride in on your white charger and free the dirty hordes from their infantile false consciousness…or something like that, right?
This is so dumb it is difficult to know where to start in deconstructing this garbage. Firstly, as stated before, the figure of 96 percent means virtually nothing in what is a de facto one-party state. Secondly, once again what is in the slightest “racist” about opposing the Chinese state capitalist regime. You don’t even attempt to explain. It goes to show just how dishonest and devious you are. I fully support the Chinese workers in their class struggles against their Chinese capitalist bosses. Does that make me a racist too? You are a fool someone clearly doesn’t know how to argue their way out of a paper bag. And thirdly while I disagree with the pro-capitalist political views of most Chinese workers just as I disagree with the pro-capitalist views of most workers in the West, in no way does that mean that I think these workers are stupid. Stupidity has to do with the mental capacity of workers to think for themselves and change their ideas. Workers are not stupid. It’s just that most of them currently hold views that are actually antithetical to their interests. It is their interests that I fully support, not the views they currently endorse such as nationalism which actually work against their interests. Big difference. And unlike you with your anti-Marxist ideas about revolution, I emphatically do not exhibit a savior complex of any kind. The emancipation of the working class must be carried out by the working class itself, not some Leninist vangaurd
“Unlike you, I am not selective in the capitalist regimes I oppose”
(Yawn.) China’s is a mixed economy with a communist party run government. They are working towards full communism by 2121. Meanwhile your party will remain a steadfast bastion of irrelevancy. Bravo!Yawn indeed. China is a 100% capitalist economy based on a mixture of corporate and state capitalist control and ownership of this economy. It is based on a system of generalised wage labour, therefore it is fully capitalist from a Marxian standpoint. There is zero possibility of the regime, which profits handsomely from this arrangement and bends over backward to accommodate the billionaire class in its ranks, ever working towards full communism. You are a fool if you think otherwise. In fact you are so deluded and divorced from the real world it is difficult to imagine things getting even worse. The first step on the road to achieving full communism will be to democratically overthrow this obnoxious anti-working-class regime in China you so cravenly admire but which represents an, as yet formidable, obstacle on the road to communism
TrueScotsman
In response
All states are authoritarian. Are you that politically naive as to think otherwise?
That’s exactly my point, you silly sod. Capitalism is inherently undemocratic and capitalism is worldwide and most definitely includes China. Ergo, the regime there is not democratic and in fact, is even more authoritarian – based on a top-down model of decision making – compared to most other capitalist regimes (that I equally oppose)
Proving you know nothing about the role of the parties even though I went to the effort of providing a very good link on the subject for your edification. Your ignorance thus, is willful.
Sigh. You are an ignoramus if you seriously think the mere existence 8 other minuscule political parties whose leadership is selected by the CCP and whose membership is scrutinized and regulated by the CCP signifies a flourishing political democracy even in bourgeois terms. These so-called minor political parties are only permitted to exist insofar as they defer to the CCP. A movement like the WSM, if it were to operate openly in China, would pretty soon be crushed and outlawed by this obnoxious regime. Our members there have to operate in a climate of secrecy and fear. Get real, TS The Chinese regime has been systematically persecuting Marxists while absurdly claiming allegiance to Marxism
You link to an article by the South China Morning Post on the political opposition. The Post is a Taiwanese publication. Taiwan, the home to the fleeing fascist Kuomintang.
I don’t care what the SCMP is. Are the facts that it provides true or false? That’s all that matters. There are plenty of other sources I could equally quote that come to the same conclusion. It’s rich you talking about fascism when you are an avid supporter of what is, in any case, a semi-fascist state capitalist regime
The Chinese working classes support their government. Your opposition to that government is opposition to the working classes themselves. They are not interested in the views of fanatical sectarian snowflakes. They want rising living standards and sovereignty. Thanks to the CCP they have both.
This only goes to show what a muddlehead you are. The working class in the UK or the US voted in their governments. Therefore, according to your ridiculous logic, we should not be critical of the governments of the UK or the US because to do so would be to express “opposition to the working classes” in these countries. Also, like the typical bourgeois bootlicker you are you attribute the …erm … rising living standards of Chinese workers to the CCP – not the working class that produces the wealth in society.
“And, no, opposition to this regime is not in the least “racist””
Yeah, it is. In your view the 96 per cent of the population who support their government are ignorant children, too stupid to know what is in their best interests. You, on the other hand, with your white savior complex believe you can ride in on your white charger and free the dirty hordes from their infantile false consciousness…or something like that, right?
This is so dumb it is difficult to know where to start in deconstructing this garbage. Firstly, as stated before, the figure of 96 percent means virtually nothing in what is a de facto one-party state. Secondly, once again what is in the slightest “racist” about opposing the Chinese state capitalist regime. You don’t even attempt to explain. It goes to show just how dishonest and devious you are. I fully support the Chinese workers in their class struggles against their Chinese capitalist bosses. Does that make me a racist too? You are a fool someone clearly doesn’t know how to argue their way out of a paper bag. And thirdly while I disagree with the pro-capitalist political views of most Chinese workers just as I disagree with the pro-capitalist views of most workers in the West, in no way does that mean that I think these workers are stupid. Stupidity has to do with the mental capacity of workers to think for themselves and change their ideas. Workers are not stupid. It’s just that most of them currently hold views that are actually antithetical to their interests. It is their interests that I fully support, not the views they currently endorse such as nationalism which actually work against their interests. Big difference. And unlike you with your anti-Marxist ideas about revolution, I emphatically do not exhibit a savior complex of any kind. The emancipation of the working class must be carried out by the working class itself, not some Leninist vangaurd
“Unlike you, I am not selective in the capitalist regimes I oppose”
(Yawn.) China’s is a mixed economy with a communist party run government. They are working towards full communism by 2121. Meanwhile your party will remain a steadfast bastion of irrelevancy. Bravo!Yawn indeed. China is a 100% capitalist economy based on a mixture of corporate and state capitalist control and ownership of this economy. It is based on a system of generalised wage labour, therefore it is fully capitalist from a Marxian standpoint. There is zero possibility of the regime, which profits handsomely from this arrangement and bends over backward to accommodate the billionaire class in its ranks, ever working towards full communism. You are a fool if you think otherwise. In fact you are so deluded and divorced from the real world it is difficult to imagine things getting even worse. The first step on the road to achieving full communism will be to democratically overthrow this obnoxious anti-working-class regime in China you so cravenly admire but which represents an, as yet formidable, obstacle on the road to communism
“Capitalism is inherently undemocratic and capitalism is worldwide and most definitely includes China. Ergo, the regime there is not democratic”
I dispute your contention that China is a capitalist country. It is not. It has a mixed economy but the capitalist class does not pull the strings there. The CCP does. Yes, there are wealthy members but they are a tiny fraction of the 6.5 thousand strong CPPCC and and NPC.
“based on a top-down model of decision making”
I don’t know how often this bears repeating, the Chinese model is one of the most democratic in the world. It is extremely responsive and elections are held up and down the system. You haven’t a clue about any of this yet in your chauvinism claim it is undemocratic. How the hell would you know?
“I don’t care what the SCMP is. Are the facts that it provides true or false?”
Well, that’s the $64,000 question, isn’t it? How are we to know if the sources of the allegations are anonymous?
“There are plenty of other sources I could equally quote that come to the same conclusion.”
Really, well, if they put their names to their claims we can examine them can’t we? So, provide some more sources. It should be easy, there are “plenty” after all.
“It’s rich you talking about fascism when you are an avid supporter of what is, in any case, a semi-fascist state capitalist regime”
Right, and I suppose the USSR was fascist too, am I right?
“This only goes to show what a muddlehead you are. The working class in the UK or the US voted in their governments.”
Support for the US and UK governments is in the toilet. Your analogy is farcical.
“according to your ridiculous logic, we should not be critical of the governments of the UK or the US because to do so would be to express “opposition to the working classes” in these countries.”
Straw-man fallacy. I said no such thing.
“Also, like the typical bourgeois bootlicker you are you attribute the …erm … rising living standards of Chinese workers to the CCP – not the working class that produces the wealth in society.”
China only has its sovereignty because of the CCP and the peasant army its land reform measures inspired. If the Party had not come to power and instead the capitalists had won the country would look something like India where half the population goes hungry.
You call me a bootlicker and claim to care for the working classes of China. What a joke. Were it left to the likes of reactionary, sectarian snowflakes such as yourself the revolutionary movement would have been throttled in its cradle. You couldn’t organise a piss up in a brewery let alone a peoples’ war against both fascist Japan and the nationalists of the Kuomintang. Your “organisation” consists of blowing smoke up one anothers’ arses and making brave declarations of your purity. Well, no one cares, so engage in whatever puffery floats your boat while enjoying the view from the cheap seats.
“And, no, opposition to this regime is not in the least “racist””
Yeah, it is. You think you know better than the “ignorant yellow hordes”. Well guess what, they’re Marxists but one’s with balls. So go sip a glass of chardonnay or stuff your maw with another slice of smashed avocado toast while the Chinese get on with the real work of building high speed rail across the planet, lighting up the night in places that have never known electricity, lifting the destitute out of poverty and keeping the big bad USA at bay.
“Firstly, as stated before, the figure of 96 percent means virtually nothing in what is a de facto one-party state.”
It means everything you chauvinist mouth breather. It means they want your kind to leave them the hell alone. Get your own house in order before telling others’ how they should live in theirs. Remind me, how influential are you miserable wastrels at home?
“I fully support the Chinese workers in their class struggles against their Chinese capitalist bosses.”
No, you don’t, you just bloviate. Nothing more nothing less. The Chinese laugh at the stupid round eye, such as yourself, who thinks he knows how they should organise their 5,000 year old civilisation. Your not even the butt of a joke, you’re just an arse.
“It’s just that most of them currently hold views that are actually antithetical to their interests.”
No, it is you who holds views that are antithetical to workers’ interests. You hurl invective and insult at all attempts to make socialism in the world. You are an enemy of the worker and ally of the capitalist. The bile spewing forth from your ridiculous little crew of misfits is indistinguishable from that of a Murdoch rag. You are naive beyond belief. A meme of a parody of sectarian nihilism.
“do not exhibit a savior complex of any kind.”
No, the only trait you exhibit is that of know nothing naval gazer.
“The emancipation of the working class must be carried out by the working class itself, not some Leninist vangaurd”
Really, and when has that ever worked out? We’ve got 50 years til climate collapse, how’s that self emancipation thing looking right about now?
“China is a 100% capitalist economy based on a mixture of corporate and state capitalist control and ownership of this economy.”
Nope, it’s not.
“It is based on a system of generalised wage labour”
As quoted earlier that is not inconsistent with socialism. Moreover, China is on the road to communism. You on the other hand are on the road to oblivion. Think I know which destination I prefer.
“therefore it is fully capitalist from a Marxian standpoint.”
No, it isn’t.
“There is zero possibility of the regime, which profits handsomely from this arrangement and bends over backward to accommodate the billionaire class in its ranks, ever working towards full communism.”
Just shows how little you know.
“The first step on the road to achieving full communism will be to democratically overthrow this obnoxious anti-working-class regime in China you so cravenly admire but which represents an, as yet formidable, obstacle on the road to communism”
How, and replace it with what? Anyway, I dare you to try. And as your life force bleeds away I hope you consider the bad life choices you’ve made. Oh, but wait, you’re a reactionary coward, I’m sure you’ll just be calling for other reactionaries to throw their lives away in your stead.
“In recent years, China has introduced a raft of measures to accelerate opening-up and foster a market-oriented, law-based and internationalized business environment, in a bid to better accommodate overseas investors.”
“In the first eight months of this year, Chinese exports to the United States, rather than falling, expanded 22.7 percent year on year, according to official data.”
“With a large market, complete industrial chain and favorable business environment, China has become a “strong magnetic field” for foreign investment.”
“”If American companies are prevented from operating in China, our competitors will be able to take advantage of China’s economies of scale and rapid adoption of technology to outcompete U.S. companies everywhere else, including in our home market,” said Craig Allen, president of the U.S.-China Business Council.”
I’ve mislaid the source, but I’m sure I can find it. But the picture painted is of a country fully integrated into the world capitalist order, seeking investment by and from capitalists. I’m sure, though, these must just be pro-capitalist lies, right?
The argument being present by the pro-Xi is that he is once more asserting the power of the state over China’s corporations and billionaires.
He is returning it to a more centralised command economy.
But this is not too different from the policies of other nations who are declaring proposed tax rises for the 0.01%, closing down their tax evasion loopholes, breaking their monopoly hold and narrowing the inequality gaps.
The Economist magazine calls Xi’s economic changes “hybrid capitalism”, a glorified trickle-down theory where more State investment and intervention will bring more prosperity.
Xi recognises that the Chinese people do have a higher disposable income to increase consumption so feels he can now concentrate Chinese capitalism more upon the domestic market and less on the global market.
With his anti-corruption drive and anti-billionaire campaign, he is appealing to the Chinese workers as a populist, akin to Trump’s draining the swamp, and it is giving him record approval ratings to also ensure his political power and authoritarian rule.
It is an interesting time for China
- The topic ‘Hong Kong’ is closed to new replies.