Hong Kong
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TrueScotsman,
I haven’t got involved in this discussion thus far but I am truly astonished at your naivete. And you have no understanding of the SPGB’s position whatsoever. In your fervid imagination, to attack a blatantly undemocratic capitalist regime such as exists in China translates into support for the capitalist critics of that regime – other capitalist regimes such as the US etc. What utter rubbish!
The SPGB’s position is crystal clear: a plague on all their houses! We are equally critical of western capitalist regimes as we are of other capitalist regimes. We do not take sides in inter-capitalist rivalries
As a non-Marxist or non-socialist, you seem to have little or no understanding of what capitalism is. In broad Marxian terms, capitalism equates with a system of generalised wage labour. That is what demonstrably exists in China. Beijing now boasts more billionaires than any other city in the world including New York. Some “communist” country! (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-56671638).
Yet incredibly, you wildly imagine that China is ruled by a “communist party” bent on establishing communism by 2121. This same sort of drivel was expounded by the pseudo-communist party of the Soviet Union in the early post war years. It too talked of establishing “full communism” in a few decades. Look what happened to the Soviet Union. The red bourgeoisie in their “revolution from above” abandoned the old and increasingly inefficient command economy Stalinist model of capitalist accumulation in favour of a more corporatist model.
A large chunk of the modern oligarchs in Russia and Eastern Europe were former high ranking members of the pseudo communist parties who used their connections to enrich themselves spectacularly in the wake of the Soviet collapse. The same goes for modern-day China. All the talk there of “Marxism” is just window dressing. The CPC has no more intention of introducing full communism there, as you naively seem to imagine, than the so-called “National Socialists” in Germany in the 1930s intended to introduce socialism. No ruling class has ever voluntarily sought its own demise by taking steps to introduce a classless society.
And then finally there is all the nonsense you talk about “imperialism”. Why is it that so many leftists witter on inanely about imperialism as if that was the problem and not capitalism? They mistake the form for the substance and are thus engaged in a continuous display of mere shadow boxing.
Every country in the world is manifestly or latently imperialist if we take a strictly economic definition of imperialism as entailing the cross border flows of profit-seeking capital. It’s just that some countries are vastly more successful in realising their imperialist ambitions than others.
China with its Belt and Road initiative etc is a major imperialist power in the world today with investments in scores of countries. Imperialism is an outgrowth of capitalism and its expansionist dynamic: capital accumulation. Since you have little or no understanding of what capitalism is about, you woefully fail to understand the imperialist nature of the appalling capitalist dictatorship you so avidly support
The Guardian describing the election farce
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/sep/19/hong-kong-elite-vote-patriots-only-election-process
Ted Hui, a former lawmaker said Hong Kong’s political system was now “a rubber-stamp game completely controlled by Beijing…It’s more than a managed democracy. It’s an autocracy trying to pretend to be civilised,”
Nathan Law, a prominent pro-democracy activist
“All election runners will become puppet showmen under Beijing’s entire control…with no meaningful competition.”
No doubt our resident Beijing regime apologist will describe those as traitors and collaborators because of their political connections with foreign countries who have now given sanctuary to them.
TrueScotsman
Perhaps you might care to address my point in 222270:
Why are you so intent upon completely misrepresenting the position of the SPGB?
The SPGB is no less critical of “western imperialism” and the capitalist imperative that drives that than it is of “Chinese imperialism” and the self-same capitalist imperative that drives this.
I find it absolutely ludicrous that you should even suggest the idea that the SPGB is, somehow, some sort of stooge of “western imperialism”. It is deeply insulting and shows how little you know about the SPGB which has a proud record of principled opposition to every capitalist war – and all sides involved in these wars – since its inception in 1904. We are fiercely anti-nationalist and anti-patriotic, notwithstanding your feeble attempt to differentiate between these terms. Identifying with the nation-state – any nation-state – is class collaborationism
For heaven’s sake – do a bit of basic research on the SPGB instead of yielding to the temptation to resort to inane and utterly misinformed insult
“The whole objective of improving the electoral system is to ensure patriots administer Hong Kong,” Carrie Lam, Hong Kong’s chief executive.“I doubt very much that another government or country will allow the public election to their local legislature of people whose mission is to undermine the national interest or national security.”
Perhaps she is ignorant of UK history that even during the height of a civil war, Sinn Fein, the political wing of the IRA, were permitted to participate in elections and their candidates got elected.
“And you have no understanding of the SPGB’s position whatsoever.”
Admittedly at first I did not but now I do. Your position is that every socialist on earth is evil but for your tiny bunch of naval gazers.
“In your fervid imagination, to attack a blatantly undemocratic capitalist regime such as exists in China”
On the contrary, China is one of the most democratic countries on the planet. It is a mixed economy but has a communist government. The capitalists do not run the country. Your description of China is faulty.
“translates into support for the capitalist critics of that regime – other capitalist regimes such as the US etc. What utter rubbish!”
If you credulously parrot the regime change narratives of the imperial core countries then yes, you absolutely do support those capitalist regimes. Their narratives at any rate. Rubbish it ain’t.
“The SPGB’s position is crystal clear: a plague on all their houses!”
Indeed, which is why your party is nothing but a parody of a meme of the sectarian left.
“We are equally critical of western capitalist regimes as we are of other capitalist regimes. We do not take sides in inter-capitalist rivalries”
China is a mixed economy. It has a communist government. The capitalists do not rule the nation. Marx himself argued that capitalism was a necessary precondition for communism did he not?
“As a non-Marxist or non-socialist, you seem to have little or no understanding of what capitalism is. In broad Marxian terms, capitalism equates with a system of generalised wage labour.”
Wages are still acceptable in a socialist economy.
“Beijing now boasts more billionaires than any other city in the world including New York. Some “communist” country!”
China has never claimed to be a communist country. It has a mixed economy but is ruled by a communist party. They will be communist by 2121.
“Yet incredibly, you wildly imagine that China is ruled by a “communist party” bent on establishing communism by 2121.”
They are indeed. You know more than the Chinese themselves?
“The red bourgeoisie in their “revolution from above” abandoned the old and increasingly inefficient command economy Stalinist model of capitalist accumulation in favour of a more corporatist model.”
Indeed. The CCP has been taking notes. They will not repeat the mistakes of the USSR.
“A large chunk of the modern oligarchs in Russia and Eastern Europe were former high ranking members of the pseudo communist parties who used their connections to enrich themselves spectacularly in the wake of the Soviet collapse.”
The USSR did not collapse it was betrayed. A referendum was held. A huge majority voted to retain the USSR. The referendum was ignored and the Union dissolved.
“The same goes for modern-day China. All the talk there of “Marxism” is just window dressing. The CPC has no more intention of introducing full communism there”
Since you have a crystal ball what are next week’s lotto numbers? I wouldn’t mind an early retirement.
“as you naively seem to imagine, than the so-called “National Socialists” in Germany in the 1930s intended to introduce socialism.”
The Hitler Card logical fallacy.
https://www.fallacyfiles.org/adnazium.html
“No ruling class has ever voluntarily sought its own demise by taking steps to introduce a classless society.”
The CCP are committed Marxists, that’s exactly what they’re going to do.
“And then finally there is all the nonsense you talk about “imperialism”. Why is it that so many leftists witter on inanely about imperialism as if that was the problem and not capitalism?”
Both are problems. You think ancient Rome wasn’t a problem to its neighbours?
“They mistake the form for the substance and are thus engaged in a continuous display of mere shadow boxing.”
I mistake nothing. I condemn imperialism because of the human misery that results. It’s basic human decency.
“Every country in the world is manifestly or latently imperialist”
Not China.
“China with its Belt and Road initiative etc is a major imperialist power”
No, it is not. See above.
“you woefully fail to understand the imperialist nature of the appalling capitalist dictatorship you so avidly support”
Erm, no I don’t. You don’t know the first thing about China. I’d say it’s partly racist chauvinism and partly reactionary sectarianism. Whatever the case, it adds up to 100% misunderstanding.
TrueScotsman
In response to your various points
Admittedly at first I did not but now I do. Your position is that every socialist on earth is evil but for your tiny bunch of naval gazers.
What a load of self-indulgent tosh. We just don’t use terms like “evil” for starters and the SPGB approach is far more nuanced than your ignorant petulant rhetoric allows for. For instance, we do acknowledge that other groups like Left communists have much the same goal as us even if we differ over how to reach that goal
On the contrary, China is one of the most democratic countries on the planet. It is a mixed economy but has a communist government. The capitalists do not run the country. Your description of China is faulty.
Absolute BS. China is very clearly a one-party capitalist dictatorship. Like every other capitalist regime, the workers have little or no say in the running of society. Decision-making follows the usual top-down authoritarian capitalist model. Despite the government calling itself “communist”, the system it presides over is capitalism. This is because the mode of production there is based on generalised wage labour. As Marx said capitalism IS the wages system. The nature of the government is determined by the nature of the mode of production it presides over. If it is capitalism it presides over then what you have is a capitalist government. That’s basic historical materialism
There is only one way in which you can operate capitalism and that is in the interest of capital and therefore against wage labour. As a naive leftist and nationalist to boot you fail to see this. It shows how little you understand what socialism is about. The capitalists don’t need to directly run the economy themselves, they can leave that to the politicians. The point is in whose interests must capitalism be operated????
Wages are still acceptable in a socialist economy.
No, they are absolutely not acceptable! In fact, the very existence of wage labour implies the alienation of workers from the means of production and thus also implies the non-existence of the classless society of socialism. Why do you think Marx called on workers to “inscribe on their banner the revolutionary watchword, ‘Abolition of the wages system!”
China has never claimed to be a communist country. It has a mixed economy but is ruled by a communist party. They will be communist by 2121.
LOL Like the pseudo communist party claimed under Khrushchev it would be communist in a matter of a few decades, eh? You are so gullible you will swallow any nonsense the central committee will dish out. The red capitalist class and their henchmen are doing very nicely out of the wages system/capitalism, thank you very much. There is not a snowflake’s chance in hell they will write their own suicide note and set about organising their own self-immolation. No ruling class in history has ever done so
The USSR did not collapse it was betrayed. A referendum was held. A huge majority voted to retain the USSR. The referendum was ignored and the Union dissolved
Non sequitur. The question is WHO betrayed the USSR? That’s right – elements of the ruling class in their so called “revolution from above”. It is the same ruling class in the case of China towards whom you display such a touching childlike faith
“The CCP are committed Marxists, that’s exactly what they’re going to do.
LOL LOL LOL https://international.thenewslens.com/article/111336 and https://www.npr.org/2018/11/21/669509554/in-china-the-communist-partys-latest-unlikely-target-young-marxists?t=1632068471416
I mistake nothing. I condemn imperialism because of the human misery that results. It’s basic human decency.
But as an idealist and non-marxist who likes to think of the world in terms of good and evil, you fail to see that imperialism does not materialise out of thin air. It has economic roots and these can be traced to the accumulative/competitive dynamic within capitalism itself. Capitalism is global in case you were not aware and so by extension is the capacity for imperialism
“China with its Belt and Road initiative etc is a major imperialist power”
No, it is not.
LOL. I suppose you are gullible enough to believe that Chinese capitalist investment in foreign countries is based on a charitable concern for their wellbeing and has absolutely nothing to do with securing a healthy profit, future markets and material resources
Erm, no I don’t. You don’t know the first thing about China. I’d say it’s partly racist chauvinism and partly reactionary sectarianism. Whatever the case, it adds up to 100% misunderstanding.
That’s a particularly stupid comment. How on earth is it racist chauvinism and reactionary sectarianism to criticise Chinese capitalist imperialism? I am EQUALLY critical of American capitalist imperialism or British capitalist imperialism. Unlike you, I am not selective in my opposition to imperialism.
TS “ A conspiracist? Really? What conspiracy are you claiming I adhere to?”
So far I’ve noted:
Holocaust denial
Denial of the Katyn Forest massacre
Denial of the Stalinist show trials
Denial of the Ukrainian famine
Denial of the massacre resulting from the Cuktural Revolution……
Etc. Etc.Bijou, And there has been also the denial of the accepted scholarship and authority of those who have investigated and reached informed conclusions and instead, the reliance upon the findings of those unqualified in the field, which is symptomatic of proponents of fringe theories.
“There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is proof against all arguments and which cannot fail to keep a man in everlasting ignorance – that principle is contempt prior to investigation.” someone once said
TrueScotsman
Participant
“What has happened with the moderation of this forum?”Free speech be gone with you!
___________________________________________________________
I Just wanted to see your response and ambiguity. Now you are claiming what you are denying for the people
of Hong Kong which is freedom of speech.In this forum we have rules, and we have moderators which do not permit insults to others members. If you go to any forum managed by Marxist Leninists you would be kicked out
Only TS, we are NOT left-wing*.
But do carry on. I haven’t had a good laugh…my sides are hurting so much in a longgggggggg longgggg time.
* This is one of your gripes…why we (you say without a shred of evidence*) are so despised?* Do furnish your evidence for this claim
——————————————————————————-Another one of his incongruency. We do have a hostility clause with the left, and he has said that we do not make any alliance with the left because we are reactionary and a small clique of isolated peoples, and now he is saying that we are leftists, he must be reading the collected works of Donald Trump
He tried to bullshit us by citing Lenin Infantile disorder on left communism, and he does not know the content of that pamphlet, why was written and the time that it was written, it is out of context, and he does not know the actual meaning of leftism.
The left communists did not support the coup of the Bolsheviks and Lenin tried to demolish them because he was intolerant, as well other personalities like Rosa Luxembourg, and Plekhanov, and later Anton Pannekoek. Leftism in our days means reformism, and originally it applied to the French Bourgeoise.
The Bolsheviks were only 10% of the working class ( proven by Lenin wife who was the secretary of the party and written on her Lenin biography ) and most of the peasants did not support the Bolsheviks, they just wanted land reform, like the Mexican peasants during the time of Emiliano Zapatas.
The Russian peasants did not obtain any land, any bread, or any freedom which was the slogan of the Bolsheviks, typical populist slogan
Lenin also attacked the Mensheviks, but the differences between Bolsheviks and Mensheviks was the method of how to take control of the state and how to exploit the workers,( management style like Stalin and Trotsky,) but one of their leaders known as Julius Martov took an independent road and properly described socialism and he was deported. We wrote about him
https://libcom.org/library/role-soviets-russias-bourgeois-revolution-point-view-julius-martov
https://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Sylvia-Pankhurst.pdf. We published a pamphlet on Silvia Pankhurst which was a member of the Communist Left.
If we do not dig into the archives of the SPGB/WSM we can not understand anything, and it can not be learned in a few hours, or days, it takes a long time to grasp at least the basic material
TrueScotsman
Perhaps you might care to address my point in 222270:
Why are you so intent upon completely misrepresenting the position of the SPGB?
The SPGB is no less critical of “western imperialism” and the capitalist imperative that drives that than it is of “Chinese imperialism” and the self-same capitalist imperative that drives this.
I find it absolutely ludicrous that you should even suggest the idea that the SPGB is, somehow, some sort of stooge of “western imperialism”. It is deeply insulting and shows how little you know about the SPGB which has a proud record of principled opposition to every capitalist war – and all sides involved in these wars – since its inception in 1904. We are fiercely anti-nationalist and anti-patriotic, notwithstanding your feeble attempt to differentiate between these terms. Identifying with the nation-state – any nation-state – is class collaborationism
For heaven’s sake – do a bit of basic research on the SPGB instead of yielding to the temptation to resort to inane and utterly misinformed
insult
————————————–Robbo
I do not think he is going to be able to answer your knockout, you have hitten him with the bucket of water used for the boxers. He is still recuperating
TrueScotsman
Participant
“The best solution is to stop answering his provocations Do not feed the troll, let him cook in his own sauce”Indeed, which is why I have been ignoring you MS. You have contributed nothing of interest to this conversation whatsoever.
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I was not planning to answer your nonsenses, but since you are trying to throw mud on an organization that I love and have great respect for it, I am going to throw mud on you and prove your ignorance, arrogance, and pestilence. Ignorance is boldYou are not ignoring me, the problem is that you do not have theoretical knowledge and theoretical background about what you have called Leninism, and what you are trying to defend, or incline toward it, which is the only bullshit what you are trying to present in this forum and I do know about it, because I spent a great deal of time studying it, and I had good teachers around me, as well, I had a good teacher at the SPGB which I can not tie their shoelaces.
This organization is what I called a university of socialism, and I know peoples who have used our knowledge to write a thesis in sociology and economic sciences, and I know organizations from the Communist left who have recognized our merits and our contributions to the theoretical arsenal of socialism, and they are not mickey mouse theoretician like you
I have questioned you about your knowledge of the works of Lenin, Stalin, Mao, and Enver Hoxha and you have responded with childish behavior and comics books. You know shit about Marxism and Leninism, and you do not know anything about capitalism and socialism, you have switched from defending the USA government into defending the Chinese government, or from the Yankees imperialists into the Chinese imperialists which makes no difference, it is the same political fanatism, in essence, both are the same, and both fight for world domination
To be a member of any Leninist Party some basic knowledge of Leninism was required, and a cadre was assigned to that person, and you have shown that you have not read any one of them and you have not studied them either, you are repeating like a Macaw everything that the Chinese ruling class publishes in the same way that the USA ruling class publish and peoples repeat them. I do not even think that you have read the Peking review, they called the Soviet Union, the social-imperialism, and now the new ruling class of china is in friendship with Vladimir Putin one of the richest men of Europe, and who was part of the capitalist re-restructuration of the Soviet Union part of the mafia of the KGB
I do know because I was involved for several decades within the Leninist movement, and I was a teacher of study cycles, seminars, and groups, and I knew it by heart, and I traveled thru Eastern Europe and Albania and I saw what existed in that region, which was state capitalism, where you are now, I was there more than 40 years ago, and it was just a waste of time
By studying the works of Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky, Mao, I discovered the flaws of Leninism, and when I encountered the SPGB/WSM I came with the desire to learn instead of being sarcastic and without any rival aptitudes, and I have to relearn, instead of being a teacher I became a student, and it took months to learn the basic of the socialist case, and I am still learning without questioning anything nothing can be learned, as Marx said: Everything must be questioned
To understand the stand of China at present, you have to read the works of Enver Hoxha because he knew Maoism by heart and he denounced the imperialist’s aptitude of the leaders of China, and he was a Stalinist, and despite that he was able to make a public denunciation of their imperialist aim, and you have not read the writing of him. That is from the sides of the Leninists, but the SPGB has extensively written about China
You do not know that the actual leadership of China supported many reactionary governments and leaders around the world, they even supported the government of Chile presided by Augusto Pinochet and they offers weapons to him, and that created a division among the Maoist movement around the world and many became opponent of the Chinese government and one of them was the government of Albania and they created their own tendency
To understand the real concept of imperialism and imperialist, it is not Lenin the answers, he distorted it completely,( and he borrowed the concept from Nikolai Bukharin who was the aptest of the Bolsheviks ) you must study Rosa Luxembourg, who by reading Marx volume 2 of Capital concluded that Imperialism is the economic expansion and that every capitalist country is potentially expansionist or imperialist, even Haiti can become an imperialist nation
You do not even know that Stalin knew the real definition of socialism and he opted for state capitalism, and it is the same definition given by the SPGB and Julius Martov, and it is described in his work on Anarchism which he also distorted because Marx was also a theoretician of Anarchism in the real sense of the expression: A society without a state.
You do not know that Lenin recognized that the Soviet Union was a state capitalist country, and he knew that it was impossible to establish a socialist society in a backward country like Russia,( His books The Development of Capitalism in Russia shows that he knew the economic aspect of Russia ) and at the end of his life he accepted his defeat, and he saw that a big state apparatus was emerging and a new ruling class was created.
Martov who was a bolshevik demolished Lenin, and the SPGB recognized his contribution to socialism and the old members of the SPGB studied his works, and with his books on the State he swept the floor with Lenin State and the Revolution where he distorted Marx completely, and he was so dishonest that he changed Marx phrases to prove his so-called worker’s state which proves that he was not a Marxist or a socialist either.
They isolated themselves and created the false concept of socialism in one country ( it was not Lenin or Stalin, it was Bukharin ) after the workers of the advanced country of Europe fell into the trap of nationalism and patriotism, the same bourgeoise patriotism that you are defending now, and you do not know the real definition and published the bourgeoise conception of both instead of the Marxist conception of nationalism and patriotism which do not differs from each other, that is the reason why we have never defended any leader, government, personality and any type of wars and some of our comrades preferred to go to jail instead of killing others workers but Leninist supported the imperialist wars of the Soviet Union, and they called it a patriotic war.
Like Dunayeskay wrote: Five imperialists powers ( including the Soviet Union ) went into the fight and only two survived and they distributed the world between each other, and they imposed their own world on the world working class
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