Hong Kong

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  • #222094
    alanjjohnstone
    Participant

    There is no point in providing you with citations. You dismiss each as false. HRW, Amnesty …all CIA fronts

    I happen to know a person who has editorial access to Wikipedia and regularly makes contributions to it. Do you have first-hand information of how Wikipedia runs? Do you know it has a self-correcting process that is designed to stop biased manipulation?

    I will try one last time and refer you to Wikileaks of a UK diplomatic memo, (not Wikipedia)

    “2. FACT. THE ARMY THAT HAS COMMITTED THE ATROCITIES IN BEIJING IS 27 ARMY WHO ARE TROOPS FROM SHANXI PROVINCE (?), ARE 60 PERCENT ILLITERATE AND ARE CALLED PRIMITIVES. THE COMMANDER OF 27 ARMY WAS YANG ZHENHUA, SON OF YANG BAIDING BROTHER OF YANG SHANGKUN. THEY WERE KEPT WITHOUT NEWS FOR TEN DAYS AND TOLD THEY WERE TO TAKE PART IN AN EXERCISE.”

    https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/UK_cable_on_Tiananmen_Square_Massacre

    Mainstream media here

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/03/china-deny-tiananmen-square

    https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/tiananmen-square-25th-anniversary-xu-qinxian-man-who-stood-china-1450937

    I don’t like being called a liar. I may make mistakes but I do not deliberately distort facts. The new security law was rushed through without local consultation and all 66 articles published only after it became law.

    “After much publicity but virtually no local consultation, on 30 June 2020 late evening the Central People’s Government passed a new national security law (“NSL”) for Hong Kong on the eve of the 23rd Anniversary of Hong Kong’s handover from UK to Chinese sovereignty. Controversy surrounds the sudden implementation of the NSL by means of promulgation into the Hong Kong Basic Law under Article 18, a legal mechanism previously known by very few.”

    http://hk-lawyer.org/content/overview-hong-kong%E2%80%99s-national-security-law

    ” First announced in May, the unprecedented criminal legislation was drafted in Beijing, rapidly tabled behind closed doors, and bypassed any local legislative oversight.”

    Explainer: 10 things to know about Hong Kong’s national security law – new crimes, procedures and agencies

    You may feel safe but I, on the other hand, if I ever visited Hong Kong risk arrest under Article 38 states, which states “This Law shall apply to offences under this Law committed against the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region from outside the Region by a person who is not a permanent resident of the Region.”

    It is asserting extraterritorial jurisdiction over any critic of the Chinese government anywhere and of any nationality.

    But my question is how representative was the voting for anti-government candidates?

    Were these 2019 local district elections rigged?

    Are the changes to Hong Kong’s electoral law, fair to the opposition?

    Are the new rules gerrymandered in favour of pro-government candidates?

    I answered you on the interference from foreign powers. It happened as it always does. The protests involving millions were not engineered by them. Some protesters have carried flags of the US, UK, Republic of China and even the Hong Kong colonial flag in a bid to win international sympathy. But would CIA plants be so obvious?

    As I have referred already, Lenin was accused of being a German agent.

    The US rightwing accuse BLM and Antifa of being foreign-financed.

    #222099
    Wez
    Participant

    TS wrote: “It was the Europeans, principally the UK, France and Poland that were trying to encourage Germany and the USSR to fight it out against one another. The Soviets were aware of this and signed the non-aggression pact so that those powers would have to join the fight the Soviets knew was coming.”

    This is all very ‘bourgeois’ in identifying a whole nation with it’s ruling class and it’s economic/imperialist interests. The ideologies of nationalism and religion were used to disguise the real motives for war of which, as usual, the vast majority were unaware. The idea that all ‘Europeans’ were trying to encourage Germany and the USSR to fight it out is just nonsense. Also the idea that the ‘Soviets’ still existed in Russia at that time is likewise nonsense.

    • This reply was modified 3 days, 11 hours ago by Wez.
    #222101
    alanjjohnstone
    Participant

    Wez, in all fairness, I believe TS is using the term Soviets (capital S) as shorthand for Soviet Union, itself short for the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, the USSR or CCCP,

    However, you have provided an opportunity for TS to say whether the soviets did still exist as independent democratic organs of working-class organisations or whether they had been subsumed into government departments and the State bureaucracy.

    We all know the answer but does, TS?

    I had a work colleague whose father was imprisoned for refusing his conscription because it was the Communist Party line at the time after some initial confusion that saw the British Communist Party flip-flop in 1939 from support for war to being against it. He, of course, readily volunteered for the war once Hitler turned on Stalin.

    #222104

    I know these peoples like the palm of my hands. Those are typical Stalinists/Leninist accusations to avoid theoretical discussions, for them everybody is an agent of capitalism, a CIA agent, a counter revolutionary, a fascista, a nazis, an enemy of the state, anti nationalists, but they support state capitalism, which make not difference, in any way they are agent of state capital.

    A revolutionary theory for the liberation of the working class, has been turned into a theory of nationalists, patriots, nationalist liberators, repressions, dominations, and empty suits, they only thing that they did was to turn millions of workers into anti communists because a wrong idea about socialism/communism was created, they are the ones who served pretty well to the capitalist ruling class

    To argue with these trolls is a waste of time. They come to the forum to insult and accuse others peoples of all kind of things, but if you go to their forums they will kick you out immediately because they are intolerant.

    Nothing new, they are being cut using the same scissors.

    That thing about the so called Soviets, it is just a myth, they were like senators, council which existed before 1917, pushing law to be passed in a capitalist congress for the benefits of state capitalism controlled by the clique of the Bolsheviks, that is the reason why Marx and Engels called the state the executive organ of the capitalist class, every president, is just the CEO of a corporation known as the state, and the congress are the members of the board of directors, and the capitalists ae the real investors.

    There is not president, senators, prime minister able to alter the economic base of any class society, it is the opposite, economic base will change them, and wars are not the product of an individual, and they are produced by coincidence, the main source of war is the capitalist market and during WW2 everyone including the Soviet Union were part of the market system. They were the same dogs wearing different collars

    https://www.socialiststudies.org.uk/rr17%20legacy.shtml. Since the very beginning the Socialist Party debunked the myth about the soviets, as an invention of Lenin and the Bolsheviks, they had existed already before 1917

    #222109
    alanjjohnstone
    Participant

    I think the trouble with TS is that he equates being anti-American with anti-capitalism and anti-China with anti-socialism.

    He is wrong.

    This anti-imperialist shibboleth always needs updating with different nations and different geo-politics.

    I always use Indonesia as an example. An invented country (aren’t they all) that once it achieved its independence from the Dutch set out to colonise its various neighbours and then having allied itself with the USA, massacre all its leftwing. National liberation it was called.

    #222111

    The anti imperialist delusion is the same slogan of the right wingers

    Nationalists of the world, unite?

    The Maoists changed it from workers of the workers unite into Oppressed nations of the world unite and they created the Three World Theory,

    Some Trotskyists groups were supporting Sadan Hussein because he was an anti imperialists, and China supported August Pinochet because he was an anti imperialist and did not support the Soviet Union. Domingo Peron said: No Yankees, no Russians

    The lists of nationalists wearing the masks of socialists is longer than a catholic rosary

    #222121
    TrueScotsman
    Participant

    “This is all very ‘bourgeois’ in identifying a whole nation with it’s ruling class and it’s economic/imperialist interests.”

    Instead of being a pedantic bore, how about addressing the actual meat of my argument? Maybe you’re vegan or something.

    #222123
    TrueScotsman
    Participant

    “There is no point in providing you with citations. You dismiss each as false. HRW, Amnesty …all CIA fronts”

    HRW is a front for the US State Department. This is not controversial.

    https://www.jacobinmag.com/2014/06/human-rights-watchs-revolving-door/

    About Amnesty…

    “Unfortunately, Amnesty has a long history of collaborating with Western intelligence agencies to bolster regime change abroad. One cofounder of the organization, Peter Benenson, had deep ties to the British Foreign and Colonial Offices. Benenson worked for years propping up the Apartheid regime of South Africa and other white supremacist societies — all while secretly being paid by the U.K. government.

    A second cofounder, Luis Kutner, was an FBI asset whose intelligence was used in the agency’s murder of Black Panther Fred Hampton. He also did secret work to undermine the anti-imperialist Congolese Prime Minister Patrice Lumumba, whose murder has been strongly linked to American and Belgian intelligence services.”

    Amnesty International: Navalny a Prisoner of Conscience. But not Manning, Assange or Mandela

    “I happen to know a person who has editorial access to Wikipedia and regularly makes contributions to it.”

    “I have a friend” Lol…Anecdote is evidence of nothing.

    “2. FACT. THE ARMY THAT HAS COMMITTED THE ATROCITIES IN BEIJING IS 27 ARMY WHO ARE TROOPS FROM SHANXI PROVINCE (?), ARE 60 PERCENT ILLITERATE AND ARE CALLED PRIMITIVES. THE COMMANDER OF 27 ARMY WAS YANG ZHENHUA, SON OF YANG BAIDING BROTHER OF YANG SHANGKUN. THEY WERE KEPT WITHOUT NEWS FOR TEN DAYS AND TOLD THEY WERE TO TAKE PART IN AN EXERCISE.”

    A racist load of codswallop vomited up by an agent of imperialism. At any rate, the cable does nothing to support your claim of commanders being removed for failing to carry out atrocities.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/03/china-deny-tiananmen-square

    LOL, the Guardian.

    https://rabble.ca/babble/international-news-and-politics/guardian-propagandistgatekeeper-state-mouthpiece

    “The new security law was rushed through without local consultation and all 66 articles published only after it became law.

    “After much publicity but VIRTUALLY no local consultation,”

    So there was local consultation then. Lol.The law was entirely necessary to put an end to the US and UK’s attempted colour revolution.

    Beijing Acts on Hong Kong

    Funny how your sympathies lie with US regime change operatives. What socialist bona fides you display. Pat yourself on the back Alan.

    ” First announced in May, the unprecedented criminal legislation was drafted in Beijing, rapidly tabled behind closed doors, and bypassed any local legislative oversight.”

    Because the local legislators are regime change traitors.

    “You may feel safe but I, on the other hand, if I ever visited Hong Kong risk arrest under Article 38 states”

    Oh, please. You have way too inflated an opinion of yourself. Unless you are an actual intelligence agent?
    You certainly quack like a duck.

    #222124
    TrueScotsman
    Participant

    “It is asserting extraterritorial jurisdiction over any critic of the Chinese government anywhere and of any nationality.”

    Phantom persecution syndrome. I have a brother, he’s a right wing shill like you. He suffers similar delusions.

    “But my question is how representative was the voting for anti-government candidates?

    Were these 2019 local district elections rigged?”

    If you’re making the claim the burden of proof is on you, Alan.

    “Are the changes to Hong Kong’s electoral law, fair to the opposition?”

    Not if the opposition are separatist traitors, no.

    “Are the new rules gerrymandered in favour of pro-government candidates?”

    Again, the burden of proof is on he who makes the claim.

    “The protests involving millions were not engineered by them.”

    The huge crowds were brought out on the streets because of media encouragement. Enter Jimmy Lai, billionaire media magnate and owner of Apple Daily. The unctuous Lai flew to Washington regularly to meet with Washington regime change hawks. The turncoat is now under arrest for his treachery. But you no doubt support this particular billionaire.

    Behind a made-for-TV Hong Kong protest narrative, Washington is backing nativism and mob violence

    https://www.thestar.com.my/aseanplus/aseanplus-news/2021/08/19/hong-kong-activists-call-jimmy-lai-mastermind-in-security-case

    “Some protesters have carried flags of the US, UK, Republic of China and even the Hong Kong colonial flag in a bid to win international sympathy. But would CIA plants be so obvious?”

    Yes, they would. The NED was funding the protests. The NED is literally the CIA.

    The NED Strikes Again: How Neocon Money is Funding the Hong Kong Protests

    “As I have referred already, Lenin was accused of being a German agent.”

    And Lenin was receiving German assistance, wasn’t he? Care to choose a better example to support your case? Lol

    https://www.dw.com/en/how-germany-got-the-russian-revolution-off-the-ground/a-41195312

    “The US rightwing accuse BLM and Antifa of being foreign-financed.”

    And you thought there was a massacre on Tienanmen Square. But unlike you and your fellow kooks, all my claims are verifiable.

    #222125
    Bijou Drains
    Participant

    AJ asked – “Are the changes to Hong Kong’s electoral law, fair to the opposition?”

    TS replies “Not if the opposition are separatist traitors no”

    Our stooge of the Chinese “communist” party condemns himself with his own words. Democracy, according to him, is only available to those who agree with him!

    He might not be the only true Scotsman, but he’s definitely the only person that still believes that China is a Socialist society.

    #222126
    Wez
    Participant

    ‘Instead of being a pedantic bore, how about addressing the actual meat of my argument?’
    So what is the ‘actual meat’ of your argument? That the ruling class of China is superior in some way to that of the US or European nations? I’m afraid that socialists find that kind of meaningless debate futile and boring.

    #222127
    alanjjohnstone
    Participant

    I have tolerated your ignorance long enough

    Julian Assange is sitting in jail right now for having released diplomatic secret messages such as the one I quoted to you that clearly supports my assertion that the regiments who suppressed the Tiananmen Sq protests were not local since these were disaffected, so much so that their commander disobeyed his orders and was court-martialled

    You insult the courage and bravery of the Chinese 38th Army who refused to turn their guns on innocent civilians.

    The blood of Chinese democrats is on your hands as you obediently parrot Chinese government propaganda lies.

    Shame on you

    You refuse to accept any data that does not confirm your own prejudiced preconceptions.

    You exhibit all the attributes of an anti-vaxxer, holocaust denier, 9/11, JFK, anti-evolution creationist, flat-earther, that there was no moon landing, climate change denialist conspiracist.

    You don’t even comprehend how ridiculous your claims are.

    It is no wonder you have never found a political party to call home. You never will.

    You have more in common with AnonQ than any socialist organisation.

    Even when the Russian government belatedly admit the Katyn massacre was carried out by the USSR, you will dismiss it as fake.

    And all of Stalin’s victims of his show trials and gulags were guilty.

    (I was reading today of Miasnikov, a Russian revolutionary you will have never even heard of)

    Nothing can change your mind-set. Read Wilhelm Reich’s ‘Listen Little Man’

    “A little man does not know he is little and is afraid to know. He hides his pettiness and narrowness behind illusions of strength and greatness, someone else’s strength and greatness.”

    You may chalk this exchange as one of your “victories” and a “triumph” for your “truth” because I am no longer willing to engage any further with someone such as yourself.

    Goodbye and good riddance

    #222129

    Right wing and left wing are both wings of the same bird known as capitalism,

    Both must be rejected by the consciousness working class of the whole world, both are irrelevant

    I rested my case with the left a long time, it is just a waste of time

    This one is just a troll pretending to be a teacher but is only a student, an amateur

    #222132
    alanjjohnstone
    Participant

    MS, a student seeks to learn. This one already “knows” all the answers.

    A review of this thread would reveal that I discovered a couple of things, such as the approval ratings of the Chinese public in general to the government because of a rise in living standards, the scale of home-ownership is another example, and that I admitted that there is foreign interference in China’s domestic politics.

    When the statements supported his case he would unquestioningly accept them despite their dubious source. If they were contrary to his position, they were discounted as false facts. “Fake news” as Trump would say.

    He is a dishonest debater. I can only go so far until something makes me crack. The sacrifice of Julian Assange to make diplomatic papers public resulted in TS a purposeful distortion. Racist or not, and I would interpret them as the sender expressing prevalent Han Chinese racism not his own, it, as evidence, cannot be so casually dismissed.

    #222139

    Jack of all trades, master of none

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