American election
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https://www.chartistcollins.com/chartist-movement.html
This was an independent working-class movement, it was not a class conciliation movement with the ruling class. The cause of the Chartists can not be applied to the actual situation of the USA, it is out of context, collaborating with the ruling does not provide any progress or victory to the working class, on the contrary, it is a defeat for the working class The Chartist also influenced the peoples of the Virgin Islands and they were the ones who brought to the Caribbeans workers the concept of the revolutionary workers union, indeed several of their leaders were assassinated during the struggles against the Puerto Rican sugar company and the sugar cane and tobacco industry
More downright dishonesty from Leon Trotsky
A fascist is defined by his or her actions. Denying reality is part of the life of a fascist. The arguments here have become an echo chamber of utter stupidity: “Progress is made by not voting” and that given a choice “the greater evil is better than the lesser evil”.
- NOBODY here is suggesting “progress is made by not voting “- at least, no one in the WSM. The WSM advocates the use of the vote to achieve socialism and indeed has been criticised by some on the Left, including trots, precisely for advocating what they call the “parliamentary road to socialism”. How ironic! So the truth is the direct opposite of what LT claims. It just that socialists do not believe progress can be achieved by voting for capitalist politicians who advocate the retention of capitalism which is, in case LT is not aware, the system we live under. If you are advocating more of the same how is this “progress”?
- NOBODY here is suggesting that given a choice “the greater evil is better than the lesser evil”. This is a particularly disingenuous claim. How on earth LT imagines anyone here has suggested that voting for Trump is better than voting for Biden, god only knows. LT must be living in his own little echo chamber. Socialists can acknowledge that things might be marginally better for workers under Biden than Trump just as we can and do acknowledge that some reforms can benefit workers. Its just that we dont advocate reformism as such just as we dont advocate voting for any capitalist politician, be they the lesser evil or the greater evil. To do so would be to trap yourself on the perpetual merry-go-round of capitalist politics since the logic of such thinking necessary means the indefinite postponement of socialism as an objective
It would be refreshing if LT – just for once – actually addressed the question of what socialists DO stand for instead of, time and time again, dishonestly imputing to us certain views that we very clearly do NOT stand for
Once more we get this all-pervading religious imagery from the Right. We discuss the lesser and greater evil, while they talk about Satanic Evil. We have seen the prosperity gospel preachers anointing Trump as God’s Messenger and depicting the Liberal-Left as representing the Anti-Christ. Some could say it puts the Taliban and their fellow theocrats to shame.
I’m more and more convinced that America does not face Democratic Party V. Republican Party but the rise of a new cult.
Our pseudo-trot is all over the place, to a large extent because he hasn’t mastered the principles of logic.
His basic position is that if you didn’t vote or didn’t advocate voting for Biden you are a fascist. But that takes in a lot more people than us.
1. It takes in all those who voted for the Green Party candidate (so even if you did go and vote that doesn’t let you off his hook).
2. Then there are the third of the electorate that did not vote (most of whom will have decided not to because they felt, on the basis of past experience, the outcome would make no difference to their lives and so was irrelevant).
That’s an awful lot of “fascists” in the US. In fact, with those who voted for Trump it’s well over a majority of the electorate. Which is absurd.
In logic this is known as the disproof of a proposition by reductio ad absurdum. Which is where his search for fascists under the bed leads.
An attention cry- LT- an attention cry.
Once the oxygen-mix fades from the return comments, the flame will loose its blue, turn yellow, and then a black- pufffff!
Attention is the key common denominator- reduce it: it moves to the next oxygen mix.
If we count all the young peoples who did not vote, and the followers of Bernie Sanders who did not vote either, we can say that the USA has more than 100 millions of Fascists and Nazis, more Fascists and Nazists that Italy and Germany combined. Get ready for the new war against Fascism and Nazism because they were not defeated in WW2
NOBODY here is suggesting “progress is made by not voting “ – robbo, Nov. 12, 7:20 am
If there is no socialist on the ballot, dont vote or spoil your ballot. – robbo Nov. 6, 2020 @ 11:04 pm
Poor little robbo doesn’t realize that by not voting he is helping the opposition, the greater evil. In the meantime, while you wait for the socialist candidate to appear on the ballet, he says “Let them eat cake!” “ACA is not perfect, so kill it!” “Social Security is not perfect, kill it!” “Make the working class hurt, so we can prove our point of being “principled””. Champagne socialists, who enjoy all the fruits of a bourgeois life while denying others of them, are the worst kinds of fascists. In fact you’re worse, you would take their cake away from them and let them starve.
If we count all the young peoples who did not vote, and the followers of Bernie Sanders who did not vote either, we can say that the USA has more than 100 millions of Fascists and Nazis, more Fascists and Nazists that Italy and Germany combined.- ms
People who are ill-informed about their actions are not fascists. They are just stupid, like yourself. In fact, by not voting in 2016 they put the trump crime syndicate in power, and you’re suggesting that was a good idea? How foolish can you be?
An attention cry- LT- an attention cry.
Once the oxygen-mix fades from the return comments, the flame will loose its blue, turn yellow, and then a black- pufffff!
Attention is the key common denominator- reduce it: it moves to the next oxygen mix. – lb
If anyone is crying, it is you, when I point out to you how destructive and counter-productive your ideas are. I hope you’re enjoying your health care and every other social benefit, while others lose theirs. You know what they say about “principled people”?
There is no opposition in the USA, the opposition is when two political parties have two different points of view, in this case, it would be a socialist party like the WSPSU. The Democratic Party is not the opposition, they are part of the US ruling class, it is one of their political fronts which take a turn every four years
There was a socialist party in the ballot in California, and others socialist parties they were blocked by the Democrats and Republican governors and senators to be able to appear in the ballot, and it is a legendary manoeuvre.
It looks that you do not know the real definition of bourgeoise when you are really supporting the bourgeoise class, most of the member of the WSM they are members of the working, there are not workers living the life of a bourgeoise, the bourgeoise does not have work to survive.
There is no opposition in the USA
We know that. It’s a fact. But in the meantime when all you have in front of you are only two choices: bad and worse, and by not voting b/c you don’t like the bad, you are helping the worse. I can’t make it anymore simplistic than this.
you are really supporting the bourgeoise class -ms
Voting per se doesn’t mean we support the bourgeoisie, just b/c a socialist isn’t on the ballot, especially when the potential for an extreme party/individual to inflict great harm is about to win. As a socialist, you should do everything in your power to stop a monster, and that means voting against him or her.
If anyone is crying, it is you, when I point out to you how destructive and counter-productive your ideas are. I hope you’re enjoying your health care and every other social benefit, while others lose theirs. You know what they say about “principled people”?
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Here we have two points, in Europe, many workers have more social benefits than the USA workers, and many workers have workers union, in the USA workers unions have declined drastically, even more, Walmart had to unionize ( syndicalism ) all workers in Europe in order to open their doors, and most Walmart workers in the USA qualify to apply for welfare and social service.
Both political parties have blocked the emerge and increase of workers unions, even more, both parties have said that workers unions do not provide any social benefits to the working class, you have cited the Chartists, but you do not know the history of the worker’s unions, even more, there was a worker union in the USA which rejected nationalism and called for the unification of all workers around the world
The so-called New Deal of Roosevelt was not implemented by Roosevelt, it was pushed by a coalition of socialists, communists, anarchists and workers union leaders, and most of the provisions have been already eliminated by differents presidents including Democrats and Republicans, and both parties leaders have used the funds of the program left to finance wars and tax shortages. The coalition motivated the creation of the persecution created by McCarthyism
None of the members of the WSM doesn’t want workers to lose their benefits when they are workers and retiree, and some are members of workers unions. You should make serious research before writing nonsense, and many members of the WSM went to jail during the wars in order to defend the working class and to stop killing their own class brothers
It is very strange that a so-called Trotsky is against principles when most socialists parties and communist parties are guided by principles and declaration of principles, you must be a militant of a social club or a philatelic club
There is no opposition in the USA
We know that. It’s a fact. But in the meantime when all you have in front of you are only two choices: bad and worse, and by not voting b/c you don’t like the bad, you are helping the worse. I can’t make it anymore simplistic than this.
Therefore, you are contradicting yourselves, do not use the word opposition if you know that it does not exist
you are really supporting the bourgeoise class -ms
Voting per se doesn’t mean we support the bourgeoisie, just b/c a socialist isn’t on the ballot, especially when the potential for an extreme party/individual to inflict great harm is about to win. As a socialist, you should do everything in your power to stop a monster, and that means voting against him or her.
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That is not the vocabulary of a so-called Trotskyist when you are using an expression of the peoples who do not know anything about politic. Socialists used socialists expression, monster is an expression used by the leaders of the Republican and Democratic party. The aim of socialist is not to win, it is to create a post-capitalist society, we do not compete with the capitalist class. The only monster that we have in front of us is capitalism and it could be state capitalism or corporate capitalism
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