robbo203
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Hi Marcos
Whatever may have been the case in the past, the WSPUS does not seem now to be the same kind of entity you are talking about. There are new people around now and a discernible enthusiasm for reviving the WSPUS. It is very important that we support this development. Clearly, there will have to be new ways of organising activity in the future given the scattered nature of the membership in a big country like the US. These will emerge over time and your contribution would be welcomed
I am more positive about the future of the WSPUS than I was when I started this project at the request of the EC a few weeks ago
Hi Neil
OK, yes, I see now where you are linking up with previous conversation on this thread. Still , even so, it might be useful to apply something of what you said to the situation in the US. Do you have any thoughts on this? I am hoping to write up a report next month on my investigation into the WSPUS and would welcome any advice or suggestions from anyone on the question of how to get the organisation up and running again
Hi Neil
I go along with a great deal of what you say. There s an enormous amount of structural waste built into capitalism – like what I called the “extending ladder” phenomenon whereby each little separate household unit owns it own extending ladder which it might use once or twice a year. That’s just daft and a plain misuse of resources. Far better to pool these kinds of things on a community basis
However, I am a little puzzled – how does all this relate to the status of the World Socialist Party in the US? Unless you are referring to the idea of using technology to more effectively reach people and maybe hiring a PR firm to give advice….
I think in the case of the WSPUS there is almost certainly going to have to be a radical change in the structure and procedures of the Party to make it more aligned with the age of the internet. Given the huge size of the country and the small and scattered nature of the membership, communication is going to have to play an absolutely central role to keep everyone in touch with each other and fully committed. Concepts like the Buddy System which the SPGB has agreed to implement (what has become of that?) will become particularly important in the US along with a resuscitated and updated website, a business forum like SPINTCOM, and the widespread adoption of technologies like Skype and video conferencing
It can’t happen too soon!
Just to report I am making some progress in looking into the possibility of reviving the WSPUS as the request of the EC. I am more optimistic now that this can happen that when I began doing this. Thanks to the assistance of some comrades in the US I have been able to email quite a few contacts in the US. Although about 20 of these emails have bounced some have found their intended recipient.
I will be drawing up a comprehensive report for the EC in about a month’s time with recommendations about how we can get the WSPUS up and running again as a viable political organisation. The potential for growth in the US is enormous and we should do everything we can to tap into it
Marcos, could you possibly get in touch with me via my email at 183606 so I can contact you by email of that is OK with you. Cheers Robin
Hi Dave
Yes, as Swami says both were contacted. I have just sent off a further batch of emails to other members this morning whose addresses I have now acquired. Once we have a full list of members in the US, and also sympathisers, we can begin the process of putting everyone in touch with each other. Given the small size of the organisation, and its scattered membership, communication is absolutely vital. I believe there exists some kind of forum on google which has been used for discussion before. This certainly needs to become more prominent and play a role equivalent to SPINTCOM/SPOPEN. The practical assistance of the SPGB will also be absolutely vital in this initial period of revival including possibly managing the processing of new applications for membership for the time being. I am hoping that the Party will be able to assist with a campaign of advertising in selected US journals but we need first to put in place the necessary organisational infrastructure for the distribution of literature and so on, as well as get the website up and running again.
So, all in all, things are looking a bit better than I initially feared There does seem to be the desire amongst comrades in the US to get things moving again. Which is just as well because the potential for growth there is very considerable given recent political developments in that part of the world
Hi All
At the request of the EC (Feb minutes) I am looking into the situation regarding the WSPUS with a view to helping to revive the organisation. The good news is that I have had several quite enthusiastic responses thus far from my initial enquiries. However, I have a very limited list of members that I know of to work with and I am wondering if there are people here who might know of WSPUS members – even lapsed members – who I could contact.
If you know of anyone in the US who is a member or lapsed member or even a sympathiser, please get in touch with at robbo203@yahoo.co.uk
Cheers
Robin
I don’t know whose FB https://www.facebook.com/groups/2126150080743426/ is, but since it is has not been made public-access, those of use who are not Facebook users are not able to see any of it whatsoever. Perhaps someone would send them a message suggesting they do so?
Hi ZJW
I think you have to actually join FB in order to access this site. It is public but only public to FB users unfortunately. As far as I can tell Genuine Socialism I administered by a Canadian and an American comrade and is getting more traffic which is good to see…
Great stuff, Swami. I’m sure that with a bit of enthusiasm and clear thinking about what needs to done we can get WSPUS back on its feet and running again! It would also be very useful to collaborate with the Canadian Party – maybe there are joint endeavours you can get involved in.
On another matter there is a guy from Twin Oaks called Rich who I used to correspond with years ago who was very active in the WSPUS and even did some publishing on its behalf. He could be a very useful contact
We can continue using this word but by far the majority of the world’s population understand Socialism to mean different to what we know it to mean. Thus, the mere mention of the word creates a barrier to those who are averse to the what they believe Socialism is.
I dont think this is necessarily true – or at least not of everyone. In America for example the word ‘socialism’ appears to elicit a positive reaction from a growing number of people. True, what they understand by the term is in almost all cases not what we understand by the term but we are talking here of people’s emotional disposition to the term that allows them to become receptive to what we have to say. In a sense, far from creating a barrier it removes one – the emotional barrier – more than any other term I can think of (most of which would probably not evoke much if any emotional response and come across as meaningless or bland).
The term socialism at least stirs something in people and, for some , this could work to our advantage. This links up with a belief of mine that to be more effective we need to adopt a more targeted approach. The people most likely to respond positively to the term socialism – even if they dont share our definition of it – are likely to be those most receptive to what we have to say anyway and therefore are most likely to constitute our prime target group.
But even in the case of people who respond negatively to the term socialism, this could work to our advantage as it provides us with a way in to discuss with them what the term really means or should mean in our view. The point is that the term socialism elicits strong emotion, either way, and this is the criterion we should use in selecting a term. An over-rationalistic cum technocratic approach to the matter is based on the false promise that there is some sufficiently neutral term out there that can accurately capture what we have to say and draw in people in their thousands by virtue of its own intrinsic appeal
it sucks that theres no administrative structure for the WSPUS right now, but I don’t think that means it should be formally disbanded. I think we could definitely salvage it, American members cant get involved in international politics hands on anyway. even if we only have a few members spread out across the country, I think the easiest thing to do would be to take stock of who we have and develop some form of a plan to spur growth. the SPGB could handle administrative duties until we establish a larger membership.
Hi SwamiNetero
I couldn’t agree more with the above statement of yours and in fact have earlier written to the EC precisely about the need to take stock of who and where the US membership is (a list of sympathisers would help too) as a first step in jump starting the WSPUS back into activity. I also suggested that the SPGB set aside funds for a significant advertising campaign in the US, in collaboration with existing members, who could advise on the appropriate publications to place adverts in and assist in the despatch of materials to respondents.
My impression is that there has been collapse of the internal administrative structure of the Party leaving the membership high and dry and terribly isolated. Existing members and ex members need to be directly contacted as a matter of urgency to prevent a haemorrhage of individuals drifting away in disillusionment and the core administrative apparatus reinstated.
I dont know if you are on Facebook but there seem to be one or two active US comrades in the FB group, Genuine Socialism.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2126150080743426/
There is also Stephen’s excellent site here
http://www.whatissocialism.net/
Some capitalists are gearing up to quit the UK
It’s not a matter of whether cops can be class conscious (or have socialist consciousness which is quite another thing altogether). Clearly they can. It’s what the role of the police is. This “radical transformation” of yours is a magicwand: “But in our not-semi-state, the police will be totally different.”
How, pray, is it a “magic wand” to suggest that, by the time the socialist movement consists of millions upon millions of workers, that the entire social environment will have been radically transformed – assuming that support for socialism takes off in that way. In fact , the suggestion that such a transformation would not have taken place in those circumstances strikes me as being nothing short of incredible.
There are plenty of precedents for thinking that when the writing is on the wall for capitalism there is precious little that the police would be able to do to stop the tide of events from culminating in socialism- not withstanding their current “role” which you speak of. You seem to agree that even coppers are capable of becoming class consciousness but at the same time seem to dogmatically think that they must be ahistorically hidebound by this role for all eternity. What’s to say they can’t change that role as they see it?
You clearly have not understood the idea of substitutionism. This has nothing to do with the class composition of the party, but concerns the existence of the party itself. Trotsky himself, naturally, never drew this conclusion. However, it is inherent in the ‘Party Idea’ – that the working class can be organised into a party.
Actually I think I do roughly understand the idea of “substitutionism” which was classically spelt out by Trotsky. It is a state of affairs in which “the organisation of the party substitutes itself for the party as a whole; then the Central Committee substitutes itself for the organisation; and finally the ‘dictator’ substitutes himself for the Central Committee”. (N. Trotsky, Nashi Politicheskye Zadachi Geneva, 1904, p.54.)
What you have overlooked is that the “Party” Trotsky was talking about was the Vanguard Party -the idea of a small disciplined party of revolutionaries taking power on behalf of a non socialist majority. You should by now know enough about the SPGB to realise that this concept of the Party is totally at variance with the way the SPGB sees its role. I think you are just taking the piss to be honest, Keith
I would be critical of a member active in the anti-abortion movement
Alan ,yes so would I but my criticism of it would not be on grounds of reformism because the Anti abortion movement does not conform to the definition of reformism I suggested above . This is why we need to apply an approach that separates the wheat from the chaff, so to speak
To be called reformist its field of activity has to be political i.e. centred on the state and its focus of activity has to be the economic realm since capitalism itself is a fundamentally economic construction
The anti abortion movement may fall under the former but clearly does not fall under the latter…
I think this exchange of ideas does illustrate one possible problem – our definition of reformism. It certainly needs tightening up and made more explicit, in my view, to avoid misunderstandings.
The essential point is that its field is the political one – that is to say, it involves the enactment of legislation by the state aimed addressing or ameliorating problems that arise from the workings of capitalism as a socio economic system. So “consciousness raising” (which is the point I think you are alluding to, Francis) is not strictly reformism. Nor is trade union activism which has, as its field of operation, the economic realm (this distinction between the economic and political fields is one that Marx made, incidentally, in his correspondence with Bolte). Some on the Left have a quite distorted view of the SPGB in thinking that it opposes trade unionism or industrial struggle which is absurd; its just that the Party does not get directly involved in trade union matters for the sake of opportunistically recruiting more members. This would be politically divisive and ironically weaken the unions by fostering political discord even if we agree in principle with the idea of workers organising on sound lines within trade unions. However that does not mean individual SPGBers cannot themselves be active trade unionists. Many are and have been and rightly so.
Also I think it is important to grasp that it is not reforms that the SPGB is opposed to but reformism – the general policy of advocating reforms. The history of the Second International very clearly demonstrates that once you go down that road you end up abandoning revolution in favour of reform. You cannot both try to end capitalism and mend capitalism. It has to be one or the other
