L.B. Neill
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Meanwhile in Australia,
The energy mix includes the debate on coal.
Could coal be part of the ERF- and state funding be a part of funding coal to save the environment!
I won’t comment- it speaks for its ‘coal self’- my that lobby is powerful.
L.B
Marcos. It has advanced. It will continue to do so. The tendency it takes has re-articulated itself since it had to deal with the ‘Third Wave of Capitalism’
Newer mutations of capital expression have peculated into so many industries- even welfare has been marketised. There is profit in poverty as liberal governments decentre the state- government to governance, and from traditional welfare agency to private individuals seeking profit from government spending. It is not new, but it is a model taken from private health, and being introduced into welfare.
It is a model being rolled out in the green economy and we are interpolated into liberal/capital ideology: Carbon credits- pay to pollute. It is not in societal control, but Establishment control, and many buy into it.Any alternative is shut out- the capital narrative seeks to eliminate any signifiers or protest.
But, for the want of a better word-left narrations are joining up and moving closer to socialism. Most people operate from taken for granted ideas, limiting or limiting their ability to think outside of capital modes and social relations… yet there is an increase in people being drawn to socialism- from a soft, to a hard left; and then to possibly think- socialism.
I do realise now the ‘cardinal sin’ of reformism in SPGB. Yet there is a movement, seen as reformist at first, yet not quite: it can consider protecting the worker in a hostile capital environment. I would wish that it would join up in the last instance, with no partisan ideations, to form an achievable and socialist totality.
This is what some socialist tendencies seek, or some say limits it. If I could attend a meeting of SP in person, I would have jumped at the chance- but I am too far away.
I don’t think most socialist groups want a power under worker/power over capital version of reformed capitalism that stops at the ability to just live- but a socialism that says power-with, and we all thrive.
The socialist idea is increasing, protecting our position is not reformism: it is stopping the severity of a sociopathic class from harming the survival of our position and of our people.
May you be well,
L.B.
pgb,
Thanks, I had to think about your question- and it still feels like any answer I give is incomplete.
There are so many Socialist expressions- like Linux forks, or like the improvements from Marx to Faircough.
I feel the end result should be the same for all these points.
Was there anything wrong with the end game I had said, or the common goal of socialism- a social mode. I am sincere about that.
The problem is: how do we deal with our circumstance until we vote the end goal in? I hate this division, and its effects on socialists. The end result should be the same.
I am new to this landscape- and now I realise all the divisions, factions and separations. We are the same, the same goal… what the hell happened before I got here!
I think this way, or that way. I should think that, or think this. Modernism or post modern.
I am told it by many groups- this is the the only one. Do I become a independent socialist again, and let that division go? I am not sure. All I feel is that there is so much division, but I share the end result with SP- a evolution toward a mode of socialism.
pgb, I am not sure if I could answer your question- but you researched the post. I hold the end goal of socialism, but how we get there is varied.
If I mimed the only way to get there- challenge me. But it is the same end goal, and I am trying to work it out.
pgp- let me know your socialist expression in Oz, so I can get an understanding of the critique. But I will say, there is more than one road that leads to Rome- and it has the same ends. This should be a point of conversation, and of action.
Please, In your answer, don’t shout at me in words- I am trying- but I feel I will avoid all this division, and become a solitary socialist again, for any expression that is different is frowned upon.
This should be about socialism and the climate, sorry I had to respond in this way to a question.
L.B.
An add on to the last comment:
I see that capitalism will not reform itself. The dizzy rule of its apex structure is an addiction- one that cannot let go of its self harm, and the significant harm to the vast majority.
It is sad to see. But if it continues I think it might preempt its own antagonism, it will have to simply concede its own end- and let the majority have its society, like what the world socialism official blog says: Socialism or your money back. After trying it, I don’t think anyone will want their money back, not a soul!
Hi Marcos,
You have encouraged me recently, sharing the fact you had been in my position over 5-6 years ago.
I see the end game: socialism is a mode of production, and it is the key mode, the true finish line, and one that is kindest to the ecosystem, and all who travel on its surface. That sounds positive.
I mentioned socialism in a local election- as a very large group of people identified and deliberately voted for Socialism. They did not vote, liberal, labor nor green, but Socialism. They disregarded the capitalist ideology that provokes the notion of socialism with anxiety, dangerous, or something bad will happen. They developed a common political association, a community- and with intentional consciousness, decided.
I know there is a way to go, but for a moment, I saw a glimpse of that ‘in the last instance’: a majority, a socialist democratic majority is possible. It will take a while: conflating time with numbers and the democratic will can blossom into a socialist reality.
The environment and all of us need it- but I hope that antagonistic point of transition is deep democracy.
Marcos, thank you for your guidance, and cautions- I still may need it!
Comrades, be well,
L.B Neill
I stood handing out leaflets: in an electorate in Australia- knowing we would also wake up to a liberal government… but we did not despair.
In the seat where we had rallied for a Victorian Socialist candidate we obtained 4.8%- that is between 3000- 4000 people in one area who intentionally and consciously voted for socialism.
socialism counts. Yes we have climate denying ruling parties on the right.
There is a gradual growth in socialism- and it was maybe double the number of Clive Palmer’ s Australian Party (a affluent right winger figure) in this one electorate alone.
This was an election on the right that called to ‘save petrol cars for the tradie’, clean energy mix coal, and so on. But this narrative may be challenged post election.
The positive thing is: thousands in an electorate made the vote for socialism- so I am optimistic.
Regarding research on climate change- I believe there is enough expertise on this forum and on many others, to use social science modelling on future social predictions, and to unpack the capital/socialism and dire warnings against capitalism in the mix. Perhaps the Socialist Standard could promote a section(s) to predictions, not just climate, but societal predictions and harms of capitalist modes.
Stay optimistic, I have tired legs today from standing up handing out pamphlets, 🙂
L.B
Alan: socialism or barbarism.
My life is on socialism- the latter will not prevail, for on the basic level- we are programmed to help one another, and if things get worse, we will spot the sociopathic tendencies of apex predators. The survival of the fittest is a vain, capital ideation, and once the real conditions are seen for what they are, people will awake to it.
I am and will, remain positive.
We all write on this forum, and partake in action- it means something. I have just helped out at an election day for the socialist candidate amid right wing parties daring their numbers- I do it for hope, and for that basic social scientific premise: we are social beings.
It is about time we see climate vandalism as anti-social, pathologise it- it is a different science to climatology, but a science in support of it in relation to behaviours and the environment.
Why do it- well, why not- be positive, we are many but out voice is often ignored- but the active- we are many!
“People are reluctant to take great leaps of faith and that is the only thing we at the moment offer. Our word against the “experts”.
Our case has not been corroborated by the science community. And I doubt it ever will be since who pays the piper calls the tune and we do not finance our own technical research institutes or have PhD students to concentrate on the issue.”
By unmasking the ideology of ‘clean coal’ and the carbon credit- or climate denial, we can shine a spotlight on the capital, and the apex powers, system and point to the socialist mode. So researchers (socialist centred) are thin, but they are there- and the current reports can be used within a socialist narrative. A meta analysis is possible of any data, according to the right research question. The science is there but we need to leap to that faith, in the socialist imaginary.
What kind of questions: socialism does not produce rampant waste/ but capital oversupply does?
Maybe I am naive- but locating the experience effects or peoples lived experience of climate change is crucial.
I started working on a vineyard with a friend, producing pinot noir- the first advice from other workers was “in 5 years time we may not be able to grow it here- the summers have become too hot”. Local producers are aware of the environment, and of climate change- and their concerns are dismissed. They are told by the advisor state boards to adapt, grow something else more ‘sustainable’ and amenable to the market. Right there is conscious awakening- capital will not respond, but adapt, letting others simply ‘go to the wall’-
There has to be a way to connect the data (not the tune) to socialist modes of production- I cannot believe any major research has not been made available- most of it focuses on the impact to the economy… A market eye produces market concerns- it is time for the socialist eye, and a call out for socialist research into productive modes and the environment…
Be kind to you,
L.B
Marcos, you are right on the point!
It is that simple. And complicating it just makes it seem more difficult to change. Direct action should be so simple
A lot of statistics on climate projections are based on- modelling. A capitalist mind will base it on capital projections- and it is profit orientated- that is: profit now; and pay later.
Even now, the notion of ‘carbon credit’ permits resource industries to ‘pay to pollute’ and maximise profit over the environment. It is capturing carbon in profits, and in a capital mode of production, profit is over carbon.
Under a socialist mode the carbons/pollutants would be managed, as profit is eliminated, and human economics centres all activity- it will not cost a thing to manage global warming (in the capital sense of costs). Democratic productions does not rely on costs, but sheer will, knowledge, and activity… and behavioural change.
There is no statistic whiz who will give an answer, for it relies on who pays for them; what their policy is; what their philosophy is… sounds negative- but I live in an electorate that says we can have clean coal… A last gasping breath from the liberal/mining industry- they call it the ‘energy mix’!
L.B
At the end of the day, if we base UBI on capital based monetary values (and in the social totality [both in states, and between them]) we will see it through money. It is capital over labour, and setting a new baseline of basic income/ or basic poverty.
I finally gave up on any hope of change- the capital system is in ruins and it won’t reform. It will hire cheap and sell big. It has no future-
It is the apex predator, and it follows master/slave, lord/serf, and capital/labour power relations. It is old,it is fattened, and it seems enduring! It can change itself to survive- yet it is the same power over.
We need change, but, the voters sleep: putting their vote on the herd that will enslave, or offer their brand of protection.
UBI… it is a beef intervention- a payment to be dormant- a market forgotten!
In the developing world, or developed- it supports the mart- even poverty at UBI level is put to use.
I might rant. But I have reached my tether, and the tether stings.
We are social beings, no more hierarchy in wealth, in society. No to the apex predator.
I am sick of the divide, the fighting and the wealth versus poverty- the division is constructed… and can be reconstructed.
The ubi narrative circulates, but can human economics circulate too, it seems not.
The best option we have is a socialist economy- but it seems so far.
Ubi can feed- a basic nutrient- but it is not a full meal: it is a level above starvation- and prevents it. What a ball to throw.
Signing out,
L.B
I see your point. Capitalism, if it can, will use all available labour as it can in an unpaid form (from parenting to altruism) to end result a profit- this can happen more spectacularly in corporate philanthropy- with donated worker time, and maximising under spending by a ‘small government’ approach to welfare. But generally it is pervasive.
Labour and time takes on new complexes- and challenges the reality that non for profit is a end user for profit.
L.B.
Take care
Perhaps the end result has value- but it can go without pay,
The social totality, or the social practice pertaining the family as an apparatus does have an ‘end user’ for capitalism. Future populations are generated- and then turned into labour/consumers.
But how they came into being is not waged. Women experience this above men. There is a lot of labour time completed without value- and not all of it is waged, but the opposite, it is commodified- pay to be a parent!- but the resulting effects are of benefit to capital, and often to men in the traditional patriarchy.
Sometimes the value is an indirect effect, or a non paid benefit in any totality.
This is a challenge.
There is a waft of feudalism in capital recognition of labour.
To maximise profit by conflating labour with unpaid time:
This is one theme. Labour time is undervalued for a ‘commodity’- and undervalued labour is pervasive. And that is generally undervalued work with little skill or profit, other than its outcome (according to capitalism) in life’s necessary activity (experience effects of engendered work). Raising a family is value, producing future workers, but the one who raises the family is under valued! And the labour buyer profits from it in their workforce.
Okay, that made it sound complicated-
All labour is important, under socialism. Under capitalism, labour time is measured, according to a commodity and product- something that can be sold. Parenting (mum or dad) is not accorded a value in wage, in the act of raising a child/ren, but seen as an expense.
I have moved beyond the thread, but the theme is- time and labour is under an antagonism. The reality is that the technical and material operations/forces involved in undervalued work are being maximised for profit… by producing markets. I will wake up tomorrow and make this less complex..
L.B.
Tell me more about your discoveries JClark, as I may have described the general rather than the particular.
Labour is indeterminate: but are you considering the specialisations in labour and the distributions to the class/gender divide?
Fixing and stabilising the price of commodities requires a shake up of labour- leading to casualisation, and the ‘uber’ self employed.
Perhaps commodity price indexing means labour costs are equally low, and undervalued… even unrecognised!
L.B
