DJP
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“I cannot believe some of my comrades think boxing will still exist in socialism!”
But that’s just you projecting your moral judgements onto other people.
I’m no boxing fan either, but like anything else, it will exist in socialism if people want to do it, and won’t if they don’t.
Thanks for looking up the quote.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1871/letters/71_11_23.htm
I still don’t think it gives you the neat split you want. It says that if the trade unions, or the employees of individual enterprises, exert pressure through withdrawing their labour then that is action purely on the economic front. But if they (the trade unions) get together and put pressure on the state to bring about reforms, then that is political action. Then and now trade unions *do* engage in campaigns to change the law, get certain MPs elected etc. Saying we can support trade unions because they operate only in the ‘economic’ sphere, and not the ‘political’ just doesn’t make any sense. It doesn’t seem like the right way of putting it.
The letter you quote from is about those wanting the workers movement to abstain from political action, nothing about what does or does not signify ‘reformism’. In actual fact I’m not sure if Marx ever wrote about that, didn’t the distinction come after he died? He did think that the workers movement would come to socialist understanding through engaging in political work that included campaigning for reforms. If he had lived longer and not changed his views he would have failed the SPGB membership test!
Read under where it says “Legalised Brutality”. Is that showing on your screen? You might need to scroll down if viewing on a phone.
“the question then arises how do you differentiate trade union struggle from reformism if both involve a “power struggle”?”
Strange question. Two different things can share one, or more, common features without being the same in all other ways. How do you differentiate between a car and a van if both involve wheels and engines?
By the way, I didn’t think the letter was bad, was just interested in seeing how Marx was using ‘political’. It’s one of those words in which the meaning is very much dependent on the context.
The only one on the front page!
Robin. In you letter you say that “In other words, the field of reformist activity is essentially political, in contrast to trade unionism, which is an essentially economic and defensive struggle – a distinction also, incidentally, made by Marx.”
Can you provide a reference to Marx here?
I’m not sure such a clean split can be made – a lot of the reformist parties came out of the trade unions, and struggles between workers and their employers *are* political in the sense that they are about relations of power.
I would have thought it was better to say that the distinction is between struggles to defend and improve working conditions and the struggle to establish socialism. These are two qualitatively distinct things since they have two distinctive goals. No need to refer to one as being ‘economic’ and the other ‘political’.
The things produced in socialism would be goods for use, not commodities.
A commodity, by definition, is a good produced for exchange.
What do you mean by the abolition of commodity production? The end of production for exchange surely? If so you completely correct.
“Maybe the Party should get into Tiktok or something..”
Yes the party should be doing that kind of thing. But not without some kind of connected strategy behind it.
“Maybe reconnecting with past members could be part of a strategy for renewed growth.”
Be careful with that, it could cause annoyance more than anything. And no need to keep asking people to join. It looks like you’re begging. If they want to rejoin they’ll use their own initiative.
Judging from the crowd at Summer School there’s been a failure to connect with people in the millennium generation and younger. I think this is due to a failure to adequately use the media types of the internet age. The collapse of physical meetings is a concern too.
“Wouldn’t it be good if we focused on a few specific wards & threw everything we have at them at every election?”
I think this is more or less a description of what is happening already?
Without wanting to piss on the picnic, I’m not convinced of the effectiveness of electioneering as a method of publicising socialism in the present situation. But that doesn’t mean we should not do it, and I could be wrong after all.
“What, then, is the point of a socialist party putting forward measures that many will see as desirable and possible even under capitalism? That will encourage reformist illusions, attract the support of non-socialists and set the party on the road towards evolving into a possibilist party relegating socialism to a remote goal and concentrating on trying to get reforms to capitalism, as happened to the old SPD in Germany.”
Yes, not standing on a platform of reforms is a strategic consideration for the reasons mentioned above. But once there was a significant number of socialists within parliament they could also support reforms if they were beneficial to the working class. I don’t know how controversial this is – but at this stage they could even propose legislation that could aid the socialist movement (for example laws that limit oligarchic control of the press).
It’s not a simplistic position of “reforms=bad” but one about what is necessary to build a socialist movement.
As an aside could I ask why people leaving the party was a subject for discussion in the first place? I would have thought, when compared to other political parties or voluntary organisations in general, the churn of members was quite low. Has this recently changed?
“I have to say I do like the Lucky Black Cat video for the style of delivery and its wit”
Yes I like that too
Perhaps this could have gone in another thread but posting this video to show the importance of YouTube in the contemporary media age. If it’s any consolation all of the political parties are making poor use of it. Individuals making videos in a shed manage to get far more reach.
