Pessimism or Hope

[jondwhite]

Making non-socialist campaigns into socialist ones often thwarts the campaign and undermines it anyway. Not even through malevolence, just that a non-socialist campaign for non-socialist ends such as reforms are more effective at getting those reforms or at least getting more people involved to support it than are actual socialists.

[Anonymous]

SocialistPunk wrote:

Have I missed a change over the years? I thought the SPGB existed to "make socialists"? 

I think there has been some change. What is wrong  with members organising a stunt to draw attention to the party? To the need for revolution?  

[SocialistPunk]

jondwhite wrote:

Making non-socialist campaigns into socialist ones often thwarts the campaign and undermines it anyway. Not even through malevolence, just that a non-socialist campaign for non-socialist ends such as reforms are more effective at getting those reforms or at least getting more people involved to support it than are actual socialists.

JD,I never said anything about taking over reformist campaigns.

SocialistPunk wrote:

2) How would organising, say an anti-capitalist demo, confuse the SPGB message with an anti-capitalist message? I'm not talking about organising anti-austerity or save our NHS events. Those are clearly reformist requests. But an anti-capitalist orgainised event, demo etc, would likely attract some sympathetic minds. 

What I'm suggesting is quite simple, at least it would have been some years back, that the SPGB use tactics such as anti-capitalist demo's, events, etc to gain publicity.

[jondwhite]

Okay but what non-reformist (or non-economic or non-societal) campaigns are there? Animal rights? Nuclear disarmament? And what non-reformist campaigns would the meaningful involvement of the Socialist Party not repel reformists from participating in those campaigns and adding their numbers?I'm not saying we cannot offer something now or why should wave a banner to encourage mustering under, but what we are offering in the here and now is socialism.

[DJP]

SocialistPunk wrote:

What I'm suggesting is quite simple, at least it would have been some years back, that the SPGB use tactics such as anti-capitalist demo's, events, etc to gain publicity.

Members and branches do regularly hand out leaflets and sell the Standard at events like these, plus we have stalls at all the major TU rallies…

[SocialistPunk]

JD and DJP,I'm not talking about hijacking other campaigns or thinking up what's reformist or not, such as animal rights etc. I'm not talking about handing out leaflets, I know branches do that.I'm talking about the SPGB holding its own anti-capitalist marches. Not standing on the sidelines saying politely, "We exist, please read our leaflet". What's the label, small party of good boys, or something like it?It's why I said it would have been easier years ago when member numbers were higher and a few branches could have organised such events. If other groups can and do hold demo's, marches why not the SPGB? It may have given the party a higher profile instead of the "good boy" and "armchair socialist" labels. Agitation is all about raising a dissenting voice, calling to angry, like minded people out there.I know it sounds cliched, but it works. The ones who get remembered are the ones who shout the loudest, and there are plenty of reasons to shout out against capitalism. I recall a brief discussion a few months back about WWI. A book about the anti-war movement, didn't mention the SPGB. I even recall some members being surprised. As the discussion unfolded it became clear as to why. The SPGB stood aloof from the anti-war movement  and so paid the price in being forgotten.Perhaps the SPGB is over run with determinists who think the "objective conditions" will come along some day. Then all it takes is to play it safe, carry on treading water until those "objective conditions" turn up and the workers come flooding in. No need to "make socialists" then is there. Just need a few new members to balance the losses now and then.I'm no pessimist, far from it. I have every confidence the fortunes of the SPGB/WSM could be improved. The first step is to recognise a change is long overdue.

[DJP]

SocialistPunk wrote:

I'm no pessimist, far from it. I have every confidence the fortunes of the SPGB/WSM could be improved. The first step is to recognise a change is long overdue.

I appreciate the sentiment but I really don't think you're suggested anything that is that original or would be particularly effective. Of the problems the Socilaist Party face one isn't a lack of people offering opinions on what they think other people should be doing….Our problem is essentially an educational one, to do with changing the boundaries of what ordinary people think is possible or desirable. It takes longer to do this then it does to take a walk around Clapham Common.

[Anonymous]

So members are in favour of the party marching with a banner at an anti-austerity march alongside their fellow workers? If so, then why vote for conference resolutions banning such activity. It appears to be an anti-working class move: a snub, a cop out Workers may get the impression that we are not anti-austerity, which will appear to align us to a very small group of right wing Tories 

[DJP]

Vin wrote:

So members are in favour of the party marching with a banner at an anti-austerity march alongside their fellow workers?

No I'm not in favour of that. Practically, if you do that it's only those around you in the march that see you. It's better to wait enroute and then disemenate literature as the march passes. I've been on demos with only one other comrade and have given pamphlets to pretty much all the people on the march that way. If we where walking with the block we would not have been able to do this.Secondly, our job is not to cheerlead but to offerr critical support. More like deSade's "Frenchmen, one more try if you are to be republicans" or updated for the present day.. "Militants, one more try if you are to be revolutionaries"

[SocialistPunk]

DJP,I never claimed originality. I was responding to this sentence from YMS.

Young Master Smeet wrote:

The universal feedback we get is 'I like your ideas,I agree with you, but I want to do something here and now'

My point was in suggesting a potential way to attract those who like the idea of what the SPGB say, but want to join a political organisation that is doing something other than talking about revolution. (Not my view by the way, I know there are members working their arses off). People like to feel as though they are part of something that is alive and kicking. And if revolution is coursing through your veins…..well I'll just leave it there.Agitation is a revolutionary tool is it not? Anti-capitalist marches are a form of agitation, expressing anger at the system, with a potential to draw in people who feel the same.Even if education is the key, you still need to draw people in first. If a walk around Clapham common calling for revolution gets a few more bums on seats, then it's worth the effort.

[SocialistPunk]

Vin wrote:

So members are in favour of the party marching with a banner at an anti-austerity march alongside their fellow workers? If so, then why vote for conference resolutions banning such activity. It appears to be an anti-working class move: a snub, a cop out Workers may get the impression that we are not anti-austerity, which will appear to align us to a very small group of right wing Tories 

Absolutely Vin.I guess you as a member and me as a sympathiser are just pissing into the wind suggesting other than more of the same. Meanwhile the same old tried and tested methods continue, that have got the SPGB where exactly?That's what I don't get. If the party was heaving with new blood, and we suggested trying something different from the usual stuff, then we'd be complete idiots to suggest so. But despite the low membership numbers, it's still us who are the idiots for suggesting some resources are diverted to trying something else. I don't get it.

[jondwhite]

Oh I agree the 'keep calm and carry on' argument against change is plain determinism at best.And we might be better off flying the flag than dispensing short tracts on dead trees, I've seen many media reports (to vast audiences bigger than the demos themselves) with banners but never one highlighting a leaflet. The idea that walking among hundreds or thousands of workers with a banner calling for 'abolition of the wages system' is cheerleading or offering critical support is the guilt by association fallacy. The party held a rally in Trafalgar Square once, the photo appears on the cover of Perrin's book. One of the banners read unite for socialism.A small change like stopping leaflets on demos would be simple, but the underlying attitude of 'keep calm and carry on' needs challenging and debunking first. I am optimistic about materialism replacing determinism.

[Young Master Smeet]

SocialistPunk wrote:

2) How would organising, say an anti-capitalist demo, confuse the SPGB message with an anti-capitalist message? I'm not talking about organising anti-austerity or save our NHS events. Those are clearly reformist requests. But an anti-capitalist orgainised event, demo etc, would likely attract some sympathetic minds. I did previously state that the various demos attract publicity for the groups doing the organising. It's advertising.  

We do that, all the time.  6 men and a dog turn up and we chat to them.

[DJP]

jondwhite wrote:

I am optimistic about materialism replacing determinism.

All 'determinism' means is 'every event has a cause'.All 'materialism' means is 'everything is matter'.So I don't know what you where trying to say above and I don't think you said what you thought you where saying…

[robbo203]

Its a sad state of affairs when it comes down to two non members generating a lot of publicity for the SPGB on a public forum with no members getting involved at all apart from the occasional intervention of one or two members.  I refer to the Socialism v capitalism website which I mentioned before, at  https://www.facebook.com/groups/1434654420087854/?fref=ts.  Completely absent is the reinforcement effect of many members contributing to the arguments and raising the profile of the Party.I'm with Alan and Private Fraser on this one.  What is it with the SPGB?  Its like a black hole into which good ideas and practical suggestions are sucked never to see the light of day again. The title of a leaflet it has recently produced  "Too little, to late" (or something like that) could apply to itself.  Mention something like setting up an internet based research project which could involve many currently isolated and dispersed members and one is greeted with nothing more than a stony silence and complete apathyDoes the SPGB have a death wish I wonder? Sometimes it seems well on the way to fulfilling that wish….

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