John Lennon
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Ed wrote:TheOldGreyWhistle wrote:” Have you ever had affiliations with any left wing groups?”.
This one was asked of me not sure if it’s on a form A
If it is on a Form A , then it ought to be removed
TheOldGreyWhistle wrote:Ed wrote:TheOldGreyWhistle wrote:” Have you ever had affiliations with any left wing groups?”.This one was asked of me not sure if it’s on a form A
If it is on a Form A , then it ought to be removed
Why?
OGW, I wasn’t commenting on Imagine just the interview. Firstly to show that some debates are continual debates – the vote for lesser evil. And Lennon’s approach to propaganda should be discussed “They’re dreaming someone else’s dream, it’s not even their own.” – false consciousness. “…to constantly put before them the degradations and humiliations they go through to get what they call a living wage.” – But as Stuart suggests we do not do that by highlighting their weaknesses but rather than focus on their strengths. Yes i consider Imagine to be socialist except being written in a tempo that doesn’t make it into our anthem to sing along on marches, too many ohooooo-oohoooos and ahaaaaaaaaaas. I prefer Working Class Hero , much more grittier and angrie. Many of Lennon’s lyrics express socialist sentiments. Many other musicians and songs do as well. No-body so far has linked to “Dr Who’s” article yet.http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/education/depth-articles/society-and-culture/imagine-john-lennon I think you are a bit too quick to put the party and fellow members down. There is not any unfair criticism by members generally of him. Many do rate Imagine as an expression of socialist thought. Some have had Imagine played at their funerals. Of the others you mention, the Stalinist Scargill, the Labourite Galloway, the Trotskyist Tariq – i will grant you there would be great scepticism of their Form A to join the party and it would be reasonable to question them fully about their ideas and opinions they have voiced in the past and to ask if they still hold that their previous political views to be correct and valid. Regardless of the publicity such personalities would undoubtably bring to the party. And thats debatable taking into account Scargill’s SLP miserable electoral showing whenever they stand and Respect’s poor results overall. Also contrast a year ago in the Scottish Parliamentary election in Glasgow and Galloway’s poor performance – something overlooked by those apologists for him that argue the Muslim vote was not important in his election in Bradford. We do demand that it is the case and not the face that is the most important issue for eligibility to join. Even John Lennon may have had his application rejected on the grounds of his support for Irish nationalism although we can all understand and sympathise with the anger he expresses about the Bloody Sunday massacre but really, is recommending repatriation for the Ulster unionists a socialist answer??!!
Well I guess thats my form A rejected. Arthur is a very nice bloke and was elected – if I remember rightly – by 90% of miners. He spoke for the vaste majority of miners. I used to love it when Steve Coleman came to the north east to speak on behalf of the party because he told it they way I liked it but never thought of him as a leader even tho’ he had a big personality. One word out of place and he wouldn’t be invited back. I don’t understand the dislike for personalities. Arthur Scarghill is a genuinly nice bloke. The party has had some great personalities. And we have had some big arseholes in the north east branch.Why shouldn’t George Galloway see the errors of his ways at some future date? We are going to need a lot of personalities before we get socialism. I seem to remember Cde Lawrence had a big personality and look what he did for socialism.Show me a person who was born a socialist? No? All Forms A rejected Gnome: It smells of a witch hunt to ask about past affiliations and the question is irrelevent anyway. A form A declares that the canditate is a socialist and understands the case.
TheOldGreyWhistle wrote:It smells of a witch hunt to ask about past affiliations and the question is irrelevent anyway. A form A declares that the canditate is a socialist and understands the case.Nothing of the kind. It is one of a series of questions (see below) intended to find out a little more about the applicant and his/her background.Nowhere does the Form ‘A’ refer to previous left-wing affiliations or any other of the supposed questions mentioned in your post #11. There’s nothing sinister about the questions asked. How did you come into contact with the Socialist Party? Have you ever been a member of any other political parties/ organisations? If so, which parties and when did you resign/leave? Have you previously been a member of the Socialist party?
TheOldGreyWhistle wrote:Why shouldn’t George Galloway see the errors of his ways at some future date? We are going to need a lot of personalities before we get socialism. I seem to remember Cde Lawrence had a big personality and look what he did for socialism.That’s exactly the point he would have to see the error of his ways, a luxury that John Lennon doesn’t have. Imagine is a song which is about communism but that does not mean that it’s author has to be a socialist. Stalinists, Trotskyists, Maoists, Hoxhaists, even traditional social democrats and plenty of other left wing of capital ideologies all advocate a classless, stateless society but that does not mean that their politics or way of going about getting there means that they should be considered socialists. Lennon’s politics were one toe in reformist and one toe in the revolutionary. He wasn’t a Marxist as we are, he could perhaps be called an anarchist because that’s a much more broadly defined term with many different stances. Also I’ve got friends who are christian conservatives, I’ve got a friend who’s a Maoist but their politics do not influence me. With Lennon it’s obvious he didn’t know much of anything about theory and was easily led by friends and aquaintances into supporting bourgeouis and utopian causes
gnome wrote:TheOldGreyWhistle wrote:Nowhere does the Form ‘A’ refer to previous left-wing affiliations or any other of the supposed questions mentioned in your post #11. There’s nothing sinister about the questions asked.No, I don’t think it does. The quote is out of context. Not your fault Cde, I tend to rabbit on
My point is that Lennon’s previous association with Maoists does not exclude him from becoming a socialist. As he said “but if you go carrying pictures of Chaiman Mao, you aint gonna make it with anyone any how” By the way ALB I’m not really a Lennonist just love his music, but I like the punTheOldGreyWhistle wrote:My point is that Lennon’s previous association with Maoists does not exclude him from becoming a socialist.Quite right but having been dead for over 30 years presents a fairly serious problem………..
“Arthur Scarghill is a genuinly nice bloke.” I have never met him so i will take your word for it. He gracefully accepted a copy of Socialism Or Your Money Back when we gave it to him at an Edinburgh May-day rally. Whether he read it or not, i have no inkling. I once got a pint from Mick McGahey, he is a nice guy too but i have never liked his son. And Tommy Sheridan has cracked a few jokes in his speeches that i have heartily laughed at. I will also accept what many witnesses have said that Adolph Hitler was a great host and great company too, a vegetarian and animal lover to boot. Personal attributes of an individual are irrelevant. It is a person’s politics that matters to the Party. Some members may not like me and i may not like some of them but we are political comrades. I can live with that and so can they. And yes we do accept that a leopard can change its spots and that a persons political views can change over the years. I simply said that we would require confirmation of that from certain people who’s political position is well known and previously at odds with our own. He might be a nice guy as a person but Scargill is the undemocratic leader and i will emphasise that – the UNDEMOCRATIC LEADER – of the SLP, controlling it by the affiliation of the NUM pensions branch, full of dead men’s votes. He shares very little of our idea of socialism or how to achieve it. I would however gladly welcome a change of politics by him, Galloway and Tariq Ali just as i would from a ordinary member of the BNP or EDL.
gnome wrote:TheOldGreyWhistle wrote:My point is that Lennon’s previous association with Maoists does not exclude him from becoming a socialist.Quite right but having been dead for over 30 years presents a fairly serious problem………..
I never made the point that his association with Maoists or Trotskyists was why he is not a socialist but he did share some ideas with them that we do not. And this was a result of him not having studied what he was talking about and instead accepting their analysis.
Alan,I accept your point but it is a little over the top to bring Adolph into it
I personally find that people on the ‘left’ listen more sympathetically than people on the ‘right’ apart from those with interests to protect, like Scargill, Galloway etc.. From what I have read of Lennon’s life and views, as well as Harrison’s to a degree, their philosohpy if there was one was more about changing yourself, rather than others. We as socialist tend to think about changing nd influencing the world towards our point of view. Much of Lennon’s work and apparently held views, I would argue, are the opposite in that they advocate changing the world and making things better by influencing the one real sphere in which you have absolute power – YOU.People can choose to be loving and respectful just as they choose to be hateful and murderous. Putting the nature/nuture debate on hold for a moment, many of the changes and choices we make inluence others and indeed the world around us. Taking a moment out to think, feel and change things within ourselves was a very big part of the Beatles, Harrison’s and Lennon’s philosophies and influenced much of their work and lives for decades.Taken in that context, perhaps Imagine is less of a sociaist song in the accepted sense and more of a personal song in keeping with the title of it – for YOU to IMAGINE what life could be like if you wasn’t behaving the way you are now.One of Lennon’s other lyrics that I have kept with me all my life is: “Life is what happens while you’re making other plans” and even as socialists trying to influence the world, we’d be wise to be mindful of that line.
For what its worth, I didn’t mention Red Mole as an indictment of Lennon or his song. Peoples views can change but tend not to do so when indicting them so I try to avoid this.
Alternative rendition of ‘Imagine’ here at 3:14.47:-http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01m1l2q/Olympic_Ceremonies_London_2012_Closing_Ceremony/
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