History and nationalism.

[Thomas_More]

But the nation-state’s origins is a different thing from nationalism, by which is meant the popular sentiment of that name.

Loyalty was to princes and the Church (whichever Church is one’s Church). The Gunpowder Plot conspirators were English, but gave their lives to kill the sanctified and legally consecrated King of England. Guy Fawkes was a Yorkshireman, and fought for Spain against England.

[Wez]

TM – I’m well aware of the history you describe but to be a ‘nationalist’ you have to have a nation with which to identify so the history of nation states is not a ‘different thing’. When you speak of ‘popular sentiment’ this is just another form of tribalism which is rooted in the psychological need for the weak to identify with the strong and, as you say, it can take many forms like religion, secret societies, sports teams, cultural and ethnic values or just plain racism.

[Thomas_More]

True. All I meant was that the existence of, say, the English nation-state under, say, Elizabeth Tudor, does not mean there was nationalism too. Unless one says there was, but in the form of protestantism.

The popular sentiment, instilled by state brainwashing, media and schooling, of “nation for nation’s sake” emerges in the late 18th century and doesn’t really take off until the late Victorian era.

Then it rises throughout European states more or less simultaneously.

The nation-state evolved before popular nationalism. Indeed, the Tudor and Stuart state was fraught with internal dissent and its subjects divided in earnest by religion, with English Catholics mortal enemies, or considered mortal enemies, of the state in spite of being English subjects.

That is what I meant.

[rodshaw]

You don’t always get vilified and drawn into a slanging match of hatred and contempt if you bring up the subject of nationalism.

I was totally taken by surprise recently by the attitude of a neighbour who called round. She is Muslim, as are her whole family. She and her daughter wear a hijab. She started talking generally about world problems and how she has her faith to fall back on. I didn’t comment on this but as she obviously wanted to know what I thought about the state of the world, I took a deep breath and said I thought we needed to abolish national borders altogether and make ourselves free to go wherever we liked, and that we should also abolish governments and get rid of the ruling class. Was she shocked? Did she run for the door? No, she was genuinely interested and actually asked me for some sources.

That said, I wouldn’t describe her as one of the lumpenproletariat – she is an intelligent woman and obviously curious. Of couse, if she gets to see the WSM’s stance on religion she will back off and maybe never speak to me again. But as yet, none of her family have come round to beat me up.

[Thomas_More]

Nationalist upsurgents in Japan unwittingly revealing how fake, western and foreign their nationalism is, by condemning homosexuality.
Homosexuality was an integral part of samurai culture and was never persecuted, but valued, in Old Japan. This was another of the many cultural aspects shared by Old Japan with Ancient Greece.

Nationalism is a fraud anyway – as Japan’s “national flag”, an American ensign pilfered from a US merchant vessel by Meiji nationalists in the 19th century.

[Author]

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