Economic reform in China

December 2025 Forums General discussion Economic reform in China

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 58 total)
  • Author
    Posts
  • #260498
    LBird
    Participant

    So, is it possible that workers can benefit from the ‘Tool Market’ in a way that they can’t from the ‘Free Market’?

    According to the SPGB review that I quoted above, the answer to this seems to be ‘Yes’.

    And if that is possible in China, can that provide a model to be followed elsewhere in the world?

    Is the 21st century likely to prove that the Chinese model will replace the US/UK myth of the ‘Free Market’?

    #260507
    Citizenoftheworld
    Participant

    Whatever economic method they are trying to implement, everything was outlined in the four modernizations. Many bourgeois economists had predicted that China was going to implement a large internal market, too

    The end of “neoliberalism”?

    #260511
    LBird
    Participant

    SPGB article wrote: ” “Let us”, President Sarkozy of France told the UN on 23 September, “rebuild together a regulated capitalism in which whole swathes of financial activity are not left to the sole judgment of market operators, in which banks do their job, which is to finance economic development rather than engage in speculation.”

    This would normally be regarded as a position taken up by leftwing critics of what they call “neoliberalism”. Thus Green Party MEP Caroline Lucas, when asked for her views on the global financial crisis by the Guardian (17 September), answered that “we are going to have to return finance to its role as servant rather than master of the global economy”.

    Yes, this ‘regulated capitalism’ seems to be similar to China’s ‘Tool Market’.

    But that article was from 2008, and the US/UK (nor any others in ‘The West’) have not been able to introduce ‘regulated capitalism’, nor has France, with or without Sarkozy. It has remained an idealistic dream.

    Whereas China has implemented a ‘Tool Market’, based upon philosophical notions of ‘Light/Heavy’, dating back to ancient Chinese thought.

    And it seems to have been successful, and continues to provide a model of economic reform for the ‘Global South’ as the 21st century proceeds.

    The Belt and Road Initiative seems to be helping this replacement of ‘Free Market’ capitalism, and the continued economic weakening of the US/UK/West.

    #260546
    Citizenoftheworld
    Participant

    Regulated capitalism has existed for several decades, and free market capitalism has never existed. Capitalists have been imposing tariffs on themselves for several decades, too. Nationalization, which is a form of regulated capitalism, started in England many years ago. Engels, before Lenin, and Bukharin had already spoken about state capitalism

    #260547
    LBird
    Participant

    Citizenoftheworld wrote: “Regulated capitalism has existed for several decades, and free market capitalism has never existed. Capitalists have been imposing tariffs on themselves for several decades, too. Nationalization, which is a form of regulated capitalism, started in England many years ago. Engels, before Lenin, and Bukharin had already spoken about state capitalism

    But how does that statement help us to analyse the changes within China over the last several decades, and help us to predict what other changes might happen during the coming century, both in China and in the US/UK, which will clearly affect the world proletariat?

    It’s not much of discussion to simply post old SPGB articles, reviews and commentary, as if nothing new happens in the world.

    #260565

    Unfortunately capitalism is same old same old. And the articles, reviews and commentary in the Socialist Standard are largely just as valid now as when they were written.

    #260575
    Citizenoftheworld
    Participant

    It’s not much of discussion to simply post old SPGB articles, reviews and commentary, as if nothing new happens in the world.

    ————————————–

    We might say the same things about Marx old conceptions which are still applicable to our times.

    There are thousands of ‘old’ articles published by the Socialist Party that are applicable to our time, and the Socialist Party has predicted many event that history has been that they were correct including the old events taken place in the Soviet Union.

    Whatever is taking in China at the present time is nothing new, they are just moving from state capitalism into private capitalism as it took place in Russia, they are just applying capitalist methods that have been applied in other capitalist countries, free market system has never existed, and the state has always intervened in the economic affairs of all class societies.

    Capitalism and the capitalists are just like a chameleon, they adapt themselves to the external world situation but in essence capitalism is the same old system of exploitation and domination which has existed for several centuries,

    It is like Nazism/fascism which was a form that capitalism in Germany and Italy adopted in order to survive it from the Great Depression, it was defeated and capitalism continued in the hands of other groups of capitalists,

    China is going thru the same crisis like any other capitalist country and it is trying to find ways to avoid those crisis

    With the war in Ukraine the US capitalists killed two birds with one shot, they weakened russia and they stop the expansion of China Euro-Asian Silk Road, and the USA and England have tried more variations, and forms of domination than the Chinese capitalists

    #260576
    Thomas_More
    Participant

    Russia seems to be much stronger now, with all its new BRICS allies. It is the US which is imploding, and Europe is economically killing itself whilst courting military self-destruction.

    #260577
    Citizenoftheworld
    Participant

    Russia is apparently getting stronger now, but they went thru a period of great difficulties when the war in Ukraine started, capitalism is a very unstable system, and several countries which are members of the BRICS are also experimenting economic difficulties . The US at the present time is taking the risk of losing its own allied and partners in order to avoid its own crisis, the US is going thru a period of hegemonic decline but it is not collapsing

    #260670
    Citizenoftheworld
    Participant

    Governments’ nationalization and regulated capitalism have existed for a long time; some writers like Raya Dunayevskaya said that the Roosevelt New Deal was a form of state capitalism. State and private capitalism existed during his government, and some of his measures have been progressively reversed.

    Kamala Harris is now saying that Donald Trump is an authoritarian communist leader like in China because the US government is taking over part of the chip industry, but Roosevelt, who was a Democrat president, nationalized many industries, including land, private boats, yachts, and farming.

    She has not read Engels, who said that state capitalism was another form of capitalism.

    Cooking the Books 1

    has-trump-gone-state-capitalist/
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_Adjustment_Act
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McKinley_Tariff

    #260673
    Thomas_More
    Participant

    If Mao was a communist, then Trump can be too.

    #260684
    Citizenoftheworld
    Participant

    https://www.communistvoice.org/00China.html

    This organization has been publishing articles on China for several years. They were part of MLPUSA.

    —————————————

    If Mao was a communist, then Trump can be too.

    —————————————-
    If Lenin, Stalin, and Trotsky were communists, then Trump can be too.

    #260779
    twc
    Participant

    What, if anything, is a Tool market?

     
    Gross Domestic Product (GDP)*

    The gross domestic product (GDP) of a country is the market-price of all goods and services a country produces in a year. It leaves out imports and foreign content of domestic goods and services — such as imported parts of a car assembled and sold in the country.

    In Marxian categories, which are summarised in a glossary below:

    The gross domestic product (GDP) of a country is the monetary expression of its living-labour (v + s) in a year.

    The Marxian definition is precise. By excluding past-labour (c), it automatically excludes imported content. It also explains why GDP ≠ total-labour (c + v + s).

    * Before anyone decries GDP as a bourgeois smokescreen, it needs pointing out that GDP analysis was initiated way back in the 17th century by William Petty who Marx, in a celebrated footnote on page 1 of Capital, calls the discoverer of the law that labour creates values, but nature provides the means.

     
    Market-Sectors of the GDP — China and US

    A country’s living-labour (v + s) is realised on the world market, for exports, and on the domestic market, for investment, retail and government expenditure. (Imports and non-domestic content are excluded.)

     GDP = (exports − imports) + investment + retail + government

    The investment market is where living-labour (v + s) produces the past-labour (c) of the future (Cap. Vol. II, Department I).

    The retail market is where living-labour (v + s) is realised as v for workers and s for capitalists.

    The government market is where the taxed component of living-labour (v + s) is spent politically through social expenditure.

    Market Sectors as % of GDP
      Sector        1995  2005  2015  2025*
    – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
    Exports
        China       21    27    21    19    
        US           8     9     8    10     
    Imports
        China      -18   -23   -19   -13
        US         -10    -1   -12   -13
    Investment†
        China       29    34    39    36
        US          17    17    18    18
    Retail†
        China       41    45    49    49
        US          60    63    62    61
    Government†
        China       14    13    15    14
        US          15    16    16    16
    ======================================
     GDP (100%)‡
        China      105   119   124   114 
        US         100   105   104   102
    ======================================
    * Provisional 2025 figures
    † Imported content excluded.
    ‡ Totals ≠ 100% reflect accounting methods:
      China NBS, US BEA/NIPA, IMF WEO, World Bank WDI
    • China’s export and investment sectors are double US’s
    • China’s import and government sectors are similar to US’s
    • China’s Retail sector is 2/3 of US’s
    • China runs a trade surplus; US runs a trade deficit.

     
    Marxian Glossary

    Value

    Value is the socially necessary labour-time required to produce a commodity under standard social conditions of capitalist production.

    Means-of-production

    Means-of-production are conditions of labour (such as, raw materials, machinery and buildings) that make standard capitalist production possible. If you control them you are a capitalist. Otherwise you remain a worker.

    Labour-power

    Labour-power is a worker’s capacity to expand value. The capitalist pays for labour-power in wages. Its value is determined by the socially necessary labour-time to replenish the worker as a standard expander of value.

    Capital

    Capital is value that expands value — it procreates new value. New value comes from unpaid living-labour. In capitalist jargon, it is an investment M that yields a positive net return  M + ΔM.

    Variable-capital

    Variable-capital (v) is the value of labour-power. It is ‘variable’ because labour-power expands value.

    Constant-capital

    Constant-capital (c) is the value of means-of-production. It is ‘constant’ because means-of-production do not expand value.

    Circulating-capital

    Circulating-capital is constant-capital (c) that is used up in a single production cycle. Examples are raw-materials, power and component parts. Its value ‘circulates’ back to the capitalist after one production cycle.

    Fixed-capital

    Fixed-capital is constant-capital (c) that is used in multiple production cycles. Examples are machinery, machine tools and buildings. Its value appears ‘fixed’ (or stuck) in production. In capitalist jargon it is a long-term investment. Its value returns to the capitalist, in stages, over multiple production cycles.

    Surplus-value

    Surplus-value (s) is unpaid living-labour (v + s). It is appropriated by capitalists with legal claims to it, as profit, rent and interest, and by the government as taxation.

    Living-Labour

    Living-labour (v + s) is socially necessary labour time. Its capitalist purpose is to expand value.

    Past-Labour

    Past-labour is labour-power embodied in constant capital (c). It is “dead-labour” — not value expanding labour.

    Total-Labour

    Total-labour (c + v + s) is past-labour + living-labour.

    Values → Prices

    The “monetary expression of labour time” is represented by λ.
      Price = λ * Value.
    A country’s λ can be estimated by dividing its GDP by its living-labour.
      China: λ ≈ $10/h   (US $18.5trillion / 1.85trillion hours)
      US: λ ≈ $100/h   (US $25.7trillion / 257billion hours)

     
    Exploitation Rates — China and US

    We are now equipped with Marxian tools to estimate exploitation rates in China and the US.

    Barber
    Living-labour (v+s) ≈ 30 minutes
    Constant-capital (c): ChatGPT → ILO, OECD
                              Value            Price
    Barber          Marx     CH     US       CH      US
    – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
    Inputs            c      2m     2m      $0.3    $3.3
    Wages             v     12m     6m       $2     $10
    Surplus-value     s     16m    22m      $2.7   $36.7
    ===========================================================
    Revenue        c+v+s    30m    30m       $5     $50
    ===========================================================
    Profit        s/(c+v+s)  54%    73%
    Exploitation     s/v    135%   367%
    Big Mac Worker
    Living-labour (v+s) ≈ 21 minutes China, 7 minutes US
    Constant-capital (c): ChatGPT → Numbeo, McDonalds
                               Value          Price
    Big Mac         Marx     CH     US       CH      US
    – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
    Inputs            c       9m    1m      $1.5    $1.5
    Wages             v       6m    2m       $1      $3
    Surplus-value     s       6m    4m       $1     $6.5
    ===========================================================
    Revenue        c+v+s     21m    7m      $3.5     $11
    ===========================================================
    Profit        s/(c+v+s)  29%    59%
    Exploitation     s/v     100%  217%
    Farm Work (per hour)
    Living-labour (v+s) ≈ 1 hour
    Constant-capital (c): ChatGPT → ILO, FAO, USDA
                                Value            Price
    Farm Worker     Marx      CH     US        CH      US 
    – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
    Inputs            c       30m    36m        $5      $60
    Wages             v       18m     8m        $3      $10
    Surplus-value     s       12m    16m        $2      $20
    ===========================================================
    Revenue        c+v+s       1h     1h        $10     $96*
    =========================================================== 
    Profit        s/(c+v+s)   20%    22%
    Exploitation    s/v       67%   200%
    – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
     * Includes US gov. subsidy of 20% of living-labour (v+s)
    4. iPhone (Assembler vs. Marketer)
    Living-labour (v+s) ≈ 5 hours China, 10 hours US
    Constant-capital (c): ChatGPT → IHS Markit, TechInsights, NGO audits, BLS
                              Value            Price
    iPhone Worker   Marx     CH     US        CH      US 
    – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
    Inputs            c       2h   2h30m        $200     $250
    Wages             v       1h      6m         $10     $10
    Surplus-value     s       2h   7h24m         $20     $740
    ===========================================================
    Revenue        c+v+s      5h     10h        $230    $1000
    ===========================================================
    Profit        s/(c+v+s)   9%      74%
    Exploitation     s/v    200%    7400%

     
    Marxian Considerations

    Markets are places where value is realised; production is where it is created.

    Chinese exploitation rates are low compared to the US, and may stay low so long as its rapid growth continues, since exploitation is where growth (reinvestment of surplus) comes from.

    LBird’s praise of capitalist China’s dictatorial politicians and billionaire oligarchs for creating a compliant working class betrays self-satisfied, anti-socialist, leftism.

    We don’t have to guess how Marx would have replied. We have Marx’s writings on Napoleon III’s “Bonapartism” and the “Haussmannisation” of Paris following the 1848-49 revolutions.

    Marx to Kugelmann (11 July, 1868): “In France, under Louis Bonaparte, there arose the artificial system of public works — Haussmann’s rebuilding of Paris, for instance — as an artificial means of swindling capitalists [through speculation] and keeping the labouring classes employed [and politically quiet].”

    Lord Keynes would interpret it differently, like LBird, and applaud.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by twc.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by twc.
    • This reply was modified 1 month, 4 weeks ago by twc.
    #260783
    LBird
    Participant

    Unfortunately, twc, I didn’t ‘praise’ China, any more than the SPGB review did, by calling it ‘broadly progressive’.

    You really should try discussing issues.

    #260784
    Citizenoftheworld
    Participant

    Chinese capitalists have not done anything that the US and European capitalists have not done, and still, they have not obtained the same level of capitalist development. And workers are still living in extreme poverty. During the post-war boom, the USA had a much better standard of living within the framework of a capitalist society.

    TWC has published and compiled very real economic statistics and Marxist explanations about China vs other advanced capitalist nations; they are much better than those published by Richard Wolff, who is always praising the Chinese capitalist economy

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 58 total)
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.