a good topic to debate
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Anyone like to teach a worker?
To be sure Mr Colborn, our system is not perfect, but, taking just one of your issues " without even clean water,", which of the imperfect systems is making most inroads to alleviating that problem, would it be the Former USSR's system?, or, The Chinese system?, or, the Cuban System, or, would it be the Capitalist West?
Well, you have not let me down. Using exactly the pointless argument I thought some would. Neither the Capitalist west, nor State Capitalist China, Cuba, Russia et al, are making any inroads into any of the problems thrown up by the very existence of Capitalism.
The majority live in varying degrees of poverty and insecurity, whilst wealthy social parasites spend $104 million dollars on this painting, or $142 million on that. Can't you see the contradictions inherent in this? Or are you as blind as you are blinkeredBy the way, I'm not obfuscating the issue. The party I belong to The Socialist Party, formed in 1904, said at the time of the Russian revolution, the Chinese revolution and Castro taking power in Cuba, that these regimes had nothing to do with Socialism/Communism but were State Capitalist regimes.
So no historical revisionism here mate. Just the facts. If you are one of those who believe everything you are told, without checking the facts yourself, that is your problem and something for you to seriously conbsider.Do I take it your "solutions" have never actually been tried out in practice then?
What in my answer to yourself, do you not understand? I have stated, explicitly, that The Socialist Party, formed in 1904, disavowed, at the specific times of the 3 instances you mentioned, that they were not, a Socialist/Communist revolution. It is recorded in our Journal, at these specific times, no revisionism!
Then you ask, "Do I take it your "solutions" have never actually been tried out in practice then?". Not to put to fine a point on it, what do you think Einstein?
You really must try to pay attention, or not get yourself in over your head.
Is logic a strange unreality to you?This is a debate on the Shields Gazette website. Join it and join in. It is easy pickings but may educate workers the North East comrades have been educating for decades. Stevie C.
I guess it's this kind of debating style which puts workers off the SPGB. Talking down to workers like they are fucking idiots. The problem is its frustrating because most workers are idiots and its easy to talk down to them. Even the concept of "Teaching the Workers" sounds high handed but then again they need to be taught. However workers hate being preached to. What a fuckin trap we are in.
There's the time for a verbal bludgeon, when dealing with hecklers at Speakers Corner perhaps. Then there's the time for a bit of careful considered engagement and building a rapport.As George Walford said in May 1984 (http://gwiep.net/wp/?p=387)"As you can imagine, it takes a good deal to leave me speechless. But that did, the first time I heard it. The blind, unthinking conceit of that answer! If you disagree with the Socialist Party that shows you don’t understand them. They have nothing to learn from anybody. There is no possibility of anybody knowing more than they do and no possibility of them being wrong. They hold the Truth, the whole Truth and the perfect Truth. The only thing the rest of us can do is sit at their holy feet and hope some of their pearls of wisdom will drop into our hungry little mouths."The Wikipedia entry on Antonio Labriola (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonio_Labriola) reads"Labriola's approach to Marxist theory was more open-ended than the orthodoxy of theorists such as Karl Kautsky. He saw Marxism not as a final, self-sufficient schematisation of history, but rather as a collection of pointers to the understanding of human affairs. These pointers needed to be somewhat imprecise if Marxism was to take into account the complicated social processes and variety of forces at work in history. Marxism was to be understood as a "critical theory", in the sense that it sees no truths as everlasting, and was ready to drop its own ideas if experience should so dictate."The day Marxism becomes a closed system, is the day Marxists stop learning from workers. It's not to say workers cannot be wrong, they can, and we can put forward our position. But the scientific approach is a measured one.
Banished9:22 AM on 15/11/2013 @stevecolborn, seemed like a simple question to me, the possible answers being Yes or a list of one or more countries/states where your proposed system has been implemented. Your list could have included ANY country in the world, not just the limited few I mentioned phillo11:24 AM on 15/11/2013 The soviet union wasn't socialist/communist. That's news to me comrade. stevecolborn11:32 AM on 15/11/2013 My answer is quite explicit in its interpretation and it is not "my proposed system". As the 3 mentioned countries had/have nothing to do with Socialism/Communism, neither did/do any other self proclaimed countries.Marx, Engels, Morris and others would agree with this statement but the likes of Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin etc who have done nothing but distort and subvert the ideas of Marx et al, would argue differently.The proof of the pudding is, however, in the eating. Marx and others, advocated a classless, moneyless (no means of exchange) world society, based on the common ownership and democratic control of the means of producing and distributing what we, as human beings, need to live.Up until the present day, this has clearly not been attained/achieved. But just because something has not been tried, does not mean it is impossible. The world was once dominated by Feudalism but no longer. The un-famous Colborn.
For those who might not know of it, there's a yahoo mailing list where member's letters to the press are recorded:http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/spgbmedia/conversations/messages
Banished3:38 PM on 15/11/2013 OK @stevecolborn, I understand the plan now. It sounds absolutely fabulous. How are you going to overcome human greed?, how are you going to motivate people to do anything? stevecolborn4:50 PM on 15/11/2013 Hi Banished. When you talk about human greed, you can only be talking about the tiny fraction of the worlds population, who have taken the whole world and everything in and on it, into their own private possession. Because you cannot be talking about the 99% of the population who, for a pittance that wages are, produce everything now, from a pin to a computer, and whose wages are, in the majority of cases, barely sufficient to keep body and mind together. If this vast majority are prepared to create the wealth we, as human beings need to exist, for the aforementioned, paltry sum, then in an alternative society, where they would have free access to the fruits of their labour, which would more than adequately fulfil their needs, then I suggest to you that this would be all the motivation needed.By the way, two questions to you. Are you, yourself, one of these who are greedy?And why if humans are so greedy, have they allowed this tiny minority of Capitalists to basically, steal the world?
Banished5:16 PM on 15/11/2013Hi @stevecolborn, I own up to being a member of the human race (not one of the richest 1% as far as I know). But, I am honest. Honest enough to admit, that, being human, I do "suffer" from "human nature", and, I am greedy. I am aged 66, in my life, I have met many, many people, of different ethnic backgrounds and different "socio-economic class". I actually find it delightfully re-assuring that we are all so much alike. stevecolborn7:10 PM on 15/11/2013Hi Banished, I to am a member of the human race. I must say, if greed is "human nature", then 99% of us are not very good at it! In fact, just look at all the charitable giving, even in the current economic climate of austerity we are currently undergoing.In a society such as the one we live in, I find it reassuring how little selfishness and greed there actually is and how cooperative humans really are. Be well.
Banished7:23 PM on 15/11/2013Thank you @stevecolborn, for the good wishes. Clearly we disagree, but, such is life. I accept, one is never too old to learn, and I always try to have an open mind.
Absolutely fuckin brilliant riposte to the "Human Nature" argument. Had never thought of it that way before. Priceless ammunition which I have cut and pasted into my notes section of my phone.
One tries ones best Ozy : ) And the discussion with my fellow worker turned out rather well to. No verbal bludgeon or condescension, finishing on a quite convivial note. Stevie C.
JD Mac 29:26 AM on 16/11/2013A man dressed as though attending dinner upstairs at Downton addresses us about austerity from a sumptuous banqueting suite. Problem is that "luvvie", "lickspittle" that I am, I have to admit that I enjoy a visit to a stately home and love libraries lined with expensive, interesting old books and displaying works of art. However, I wish that the vast resources of wealth created by capitalism could be employed other than in the pursuit of conflicts throughout the world. Cameron once talked of "Big Society", mute on that now, and "we are all in it together", that too seems to have been put to bed. B and C having the sort of debate that is worth a read, both making valid points without resorting to name calling, or long personalised rants.
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