Geordie logic

Prole Logic

Ozymandias
Participant
Prole Logic

Do you mean proletarian logic. It is a term applicable to Joseph Dietzgen which was considered as the workers philosopher

The term ‘proletarian logic’ is sometimes taken as evidence of polylogism This term is usually traced back to Joseph Dietzgen in his 11th letter on logic.[6][7] Dietzgen is the now obscure philosophical monist of the 19th century who coined the term ‘dialectical materialism’ and was praised by communist figures such as Karl Marx and V. I. Lenin.[8] His work has received modern attention primarily from the philosopher Bertell Ollman. As a monist, Dietzgen insists on a unified treatment of mind and matter. As Simon Boxley puts it, for Dietzgen “thought is as material an event as any other”. This means that logic too has “material” underpinnings.[further explanation needed] (But note that Dietzgen’s “materialism” was explicitly not a physicalism.)

Adam Buick wrote an article about him

https://mailstrom.blogspot.com/2007/04/joseph-dietzgen-workers-philosopher.html

If the suggestion in that Wikipedia entry is that Dietzgen thought there is a “proletarian logic” different from a “bourgeois logic” then that goes against what he wrote elsewhere. For instance

This Month’s Quotation: Joseph Dietzgen

Just re-read his 11th letter on logic which is cited as the source of the Wikipedia claim. It is true that he uses the term “proletarian logic” a couple of times but not in the sense of a logic special to the proletariat. He seems, rather, to mean that the proletariat has inherited science from the past and that it is its duty to defend and continue it.

Also, far from praising Dietzgen, Lenin criticised his “monism” (“that thought is as material event as any other”) as a concession to idealism.

In any event, YMS’s Geordies were not using any kind of logic, proletarian or otherwise.

“I don’t mean to be mean to Geordies, but until they develop thumbs and learn human speech it’s just too easy.

Anyway, this video is faintly terrifying:
basically, Toon fans defending taking Saudi money with weak tu quouque arguments against the British state (which are fair enough), but it shows how people can hold some fairly hypocritical POVs when it suits their ideational interests, in this case as footie fans.”

A late reply because I was busy developing thumbs and then learning the secret of fire.

Having watched the video I found it a little surprising that the original poster should identify the three people in the video as “Geordies”. The last two speakers did not have a Geordie accents (as any fule kno). The second had a Middle Eastern/Asian accent, the third speaker clearly had a County Durham accent. (Geordies don’t drop their aitches and his pronounciation of food banks as “fewd banks, is a give away as to his linguistic origin).

So, on the basis of one speaker on a dodgy twitter video YMS can Comfortably deride the whole population of Tyneside, no doubt he thinks that all Scousers are thieves, all Welshmen are sheep shaggers (when they are not engaged in choirs), all Glaswegians are violent drunken psycopaths and all Aberdonians are tight fisted.

As to the language issue, we have been able to speak for quite some time. The broad dialectical range known generally as Northumbrian (including Geordie, North Northumbrian, Mackem and Pitmatic) is considered by some to be a separate language. For instance, The Northumbrian Language Society (NLS), founded in 1983 to research, preserve and promote the Northumbrian language variety, considers it divergent enough to be not a dialect of Modern Standard English but, rather, a related but separate Anglic language of its own, since it is largely not comprehensible by standard English speakers. Northumbrian has perhaps an even closer relationship with Modern Scots, and both the NLS regard as distinct languages derived from Old English but close relatives.

Much of the dialect used is much closer to Old English than Standard English spoken in the South, for instance the use “yee” instead of you, “Watter” instead of water, “Hyem” instead of home, “hoose” instead of house, “Toon” instead of town and “Larn” instead of learn or teach. Many other words are close to Scandinavian usage, for example “gan” instead of go and “bairn” for child (Barn in Swedish, Norwegian and Danish). Vowels sounds and use of dipthongs in this dialect are also closer to Old English, whereas Southern and Midland English use of vowels and dipthongs has been changed through the Norman influence (byuts for boots, beor for beer, etc).

It is fair to say, in my opinion, that actually everyone South of Middlesbrough is actually speaking in French.

In fairness though, I can only assume that YMS was attempting to develop a little “banter”, (South Africans are well know for their humour) well YMS, “hadaway n’ poss ya dutt, y’geet glake”.

Interestingly YMS also implies in his posting that Newcastle fans should protest at the presence of the Saudi regime at Newcastle, perhaps he feels that Newcastle fans should attempt to reform part of the Capitalist System and that even more interestingly he perhaps thinks that these kinds of reforms would be worthwhile.

With regard to the response of Newcastle fans to the take over (by the way not all Geordies are Toon fans and not all Toon fans are Geordies, about 50% of those who live on the South Bank of the Tyne from roughly Jarrow towards South Shields follow the Great Unwashed and attend the Stad du Merde and in some of the mining villages whole populations were moved lock stock and barrel from one mining town to another so following family loyalty there are pockets of Mackems in some of the Northumberland ex mining towns and pockets of Newcastle fans in parts of deepest Durham), the view regarding the Saudi takeover has been variable. Some have protested about the takeover others have misgivings but are pleased to get rid of Mike Ashley, others have welcomed it whole heartedly.

One recurrent theme for lots of fans, however, has been the apparent hyprocracy of media reporting. No call for boycott of Arsenal’s Emirates Stadium or their sportswashing sponsership of the authoritarian Rwandan regime, no mention of the fact that Man United were sponsored for years by Aeroflot (prop V Putin), that millions of pounds of sponsorship and prize money was given to Champions League teams by Gazprom (see above), that very little mention was made of Man City’s takeover by Thakswin Shinawatra (responsible for the death of 2,500 people during his “war on drugs”), that the level of discussion about the Man City takeover by the UAE was far more muted than that of the Newcastle takeover. Added to that there is a response that other investors from the UK, USA and China, tainted by human rights abuses, are similarly linked to football clubs without any great out cry.

Of particular interest to those of a Black and White persuasion is the noise made over in Wearside about sports washing and blood money. Funnily enough I didn’t see any outcry from Wearyside when Charlie Methven (who made his money in the democratic hot spot of Bahrain) joined the board, no they actually wanted to get him out because he called Sunderland fans who were watching (and paying for) Beout tv (funded by the Saudi Government) parasites on pirate, when he spoke out about this on TV.

Presumably it was morally acceptable for Blunderland fans to watch and pay happily for what one of their fans on TV at the time called “Taliban Telly”, but throw their hand up about Saudi involvement now.

I might also mention Antonio Simon Vumbaca (one of the current non executive directors of SAFC), who made his dosh providing legal support to Formula 1, which has held Grand Prix in such wonderfully liberal and humane countries such as Russia, Bahrain, Azerbaijan, Qatar and low and behold Saudi Arabia and who was happy to be retained by the Bahrainis from 2010 onwards

Interestingly SAFC are currently owned by Kyril Louis-Dreyfus of the Louis Deyfrus Group of families which has a long history of arms dealing, international commodity brokerage in oil (wonder where all of that oil came, could it be Saudi Arabia?) or their presence in Argentina during regime of Jorge Rafael Videla, president of Argentina during the Dirty War where 30,000 people who were disappeared.

Many also point out that those who throw their hands up at the fact that the Saudis have bought Newcastle United but did not seem to mind that British companies were profitting from the sale of murderous weapons and torture equipment to the same Saudis.

From my own point of view, as part of the capitalist system Football is corrupt root and branch. Get rid of the Saudis and another bunch of corrupt repugnant capitalists will take over. Back in the day there were directors of Newcastle United who owned collieries and mines, how many thousands died in the North East to keep the mine owners of the district happy. How many workers had their surplus value legally stolen to keep Mike Ashley, John Hall, Freddie Shepherd, et al in comfort? If we follow practically any kind of sport, the corrupting tentacles of capitalism will be there.

I like to think that Bobby Robson was right when he wrote:

“What is a club in any case? Not the buildings or the directors or the people who are paid to represent it. It’s not the television contracts, get-out clauses, marketing departments or executive boxes. It’s the noise, the passion, the feeling of belonging, the pride in your city. It’s a small boy clambering up stadium steps for the very first time, gripping his father’s hand, gawping at that hallowed stretch of turf beneath him and, without being able to do a thing about it, falling in love.”― Bobby Robson, Newcastle: My Kind of Toon

I made my first walk up those stairs holding my Dad’s hand in 1967. My little girl clambered up those steps for the first time holding my hand 33 years ago, her 5 year old son did his first clamber up the steps with us both last month. I hope that if he has a little boy or girl that he makes the same journey, preferably at a time when there is a sane social system that doesn’t manipulate, abuse and distort sporting endeavour to meet the interests of the profit system, the greed of the few and the exapansion of Capital. How’s that suit you for Geordie Logic YMS?

Young Master Smeet wrote:

Very kind of you to include smoggies in the English speaking world. Frankly, I’m spent enough of my life explaining to folk that I’m not a Geordie to know the difference, but don’t forget the influence of mass culture on shifting dialects: my sister’s kids call her ‘mum’. While I’m there, bairn is old English, but you’re right about Northumbrian generally as a conservative dialect. Teesside has added Irish inflection.

BTW, the second speaker clearly has picked up a few Geordie notes in his accent.

My point, though, wasn’t to criticise the magpie fans – the point was a general human one about how we stand our ground intellectually when we care about something, and how facts are absorbed.

After all, Gibbo is involved in all this freeport nonsense, capitalists are gonna capitalist.

YMS – Aye, divvent worry Marra, the Grandbairns have a Smoggy Fatha. A canny lad, but clearly misguided.

Thankfully grandbairn 1 has chosen the righteous path. Grandbairn 2 may be another issue, not yet two years old and full of hell!

Love the bones of the pair of them!

Her nickname is “Rosa” because of her nonconformity, so red and white might be her choice!

I agree with your general point that in captalism that we all have cognitive dissonance. Scottish and Newcastle Breweries were the biggest bunch of twats in the world, but I’d strangle a new born kitten for a bottle of the original bottle of Newcastle Brown Ale (not the shite on sale now), or a pint of Fed Special, Sold off to bloody Heiniken.

As you say, even Gibbo, who is probably the most popular and decent Football Club Owner, is constrained by the nature of capitalism.

My view is that sport and the joy it brings (as either spectator or participant) is one of the joys of life. I played football competitively until I was nearly 50 and I wish I was fit enough to play again.

In comparison to some of the shite capitalism throws up, sport etc. is small beer. However sport, the arts, travel, music are part of human need and the current system of property ownership continually deprives the majority meaningful access to all of these area of life.

Moderator

I don’t mean to be mean to Geordies, but until they develop thumbs and learn human speech it’s just too easy.

____

The same with scousers.
Whingeing about Real Madrid? Offended by everything ashamed of nothing.

Liverpool is one of the deprived areas in the county. Liverpool fans cheering on £100m Núñez* and £400,000 a week Salah. You can’t make it up.
*the new Andy Carroll

“Most of their wages comes from advertisers, not from gates (so, in a big way, we are part of the product, working for free, ourselves).”

Indeed. I read in a history book that in the 1930’s, premiership footballers were paid (adjusted for inflation) the same wages as skilled factory workers.

• This reply was modified 7 months, 3 weeks ago by Moo.