Hch wrote: Well I thought

[Anonymous]

Hch wrote:

Well I thought this thread was dead but it’s alive and kicking. In answer to your points:1. Dumb ox – I don’t think the working class is a dumb ox.

You clearly do from you arguments below…

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I think this class is productive, artistic, creative etc etc. Far more than other classes, such as the bourgoisie or peasantry. The working class is pragmatic and so you must speak to them is concrete, not abstract terms. That’s all I’m saying.

It is YOU who are constantly refering to our class as ‘they’, ‘them’ etc which kinda puts you apart. Why not ‘we’ and ‘us’ if you consider yourself one?

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The SPGB talks in curious ways, such as ‘abolish money’ or ‘abolish the wages system’ (which Cameron & Co seem to be succesfully doing without the SPGB!), which is certainly the long-term goal but to raise such slogans now, flies over heads of everyone.

Not really – it is of absolute clarity and not really curious at all. It is THE goal and how I have always understood socialism to be – something no other party says.

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  And you and I know that on day-1 of the revolution, the abolition of money will not happen.

Why not?

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However, to have the demand of ‘a living wage, publicly owned and democratically controlled house building program or hospital building program, is far more understandable and of course must be communicated with the message that this can only be achieved when the means of production are taken over.

So going back to the dumb ox syndrome again. You must think that people are too stupid to grasp a society based on equality and free access without money? You think they need to be teased and coaxed with demands that will never have any chance of success and obviously think that the same people are even stupider not to see that as well? Think about yourself – would you rather have to work the same hours for a ‘living wage’ in essentially the same crappy society and conditions or would you rather sweep the rotten lot away and not have to work other than in comradeship for the betterment of mankind? To give what you can and take what you need to paraphrase? Or are you saying the best, the very best you can hope for and work for is a slightly different version of the same shit we currently have? This is the dishonesty which puts me off SWP/Militant and the left of that ilk. State your aims and work towards them openly. No front organisation (YRE/ANL for example), no ‘transitional demands’ that cannot ever be met.  It detracts from the basics of convincing people of the benefits of a socialist society.  It can also dissapoint, alienate and confuse those you are trying to win over and eventually discredits the word socialism as it becomes associated with unrealistic demands and failures of practice which is counter-productive. Reforms will ALWAYS be re-gained by the capitalist class at some point.

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2. Yes I am working class, maybe a lumpen element, as I was made redundant at christmas after 20 years with the same company and unable to find a job.3. ‘Smash the State’ does anyone on the left shout this claim? Anarchists maybe but I’m no anarchist. I don’t even think the likes of the ultra-left SWP use this term but I wouldn’t put it past them.

Whoopie! More in-fighting and pedantry.

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4. Liverpool Council of the 1980s never sacked it’s workforce. You’re falling for the propaganda put out by the likes of Murdoch on that one. They fought back against Thatcher demanding resources and had mass support within Merseyside. To lump Ken Livingstone with them is oh so wrong. It was the likes of Ken in London and Blunkett in Sheffield who ducked out of the fight that left Liverpool all on it’s own to be crushed with expulsion and personal sequestration of the socialist councillors personal property. They deserve your applause, not condemnation. Militant or now the Socialist Party still campaign against Council Taxes in favour of a more progressive method and opposes ALL cuts to services.

So you’re saying that they never issued 90-day notices to their employees during the fight about budgets? Perhaps I should have bene more specific and said they issued the redundancy notices rather than sacked, my error. The fact is that happened and those workers had months of worry about their individual futures. Militant has to take responsibility for playing with those people’s lives while pretending to be revolutionaries in a ‘fight’ doomed to failure from the very start. The very fact which underlines what we have been saying in previous posts – reformism doesn’t work. Militant wasted its time trying to make capitlaism better instead of working to destroy it and replace it with genuine socialism. And I am horrified that Militant is now working towards a more progressive method of taxation?! Why not No Tax, No Money?!

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5. Militant/Socialist Party is a democratic party and insists it’s councellors and MPs only took/take only an average workers’ wage with legitimate, audited expences. This was carried out in practice by MPs Dave Nellist, Pat Wall and Terry Fields, who were all expelled from Labour for advocating socialism. I don’t think the SPGB has that as a policy but correct me if I’m wrong. The SPGB does not hold the monopoly on democracy. It is very arrogant of you to think it does and all other socialist groups are not democratic. Some are democratic but I agree some do not practice internal democracy. In fact I would say the Socialist Party is MORE democratic than the SPGB, insisting on the Right of Recall, allowing factions with access to party resources when there is a disagreement on policy. The SPGB would not allow that, would they? Disagreement on policy or joining the armed forces would result in expulsion. So workers in uniform are lepers in your book, which is quite ridiculous.

I said I speak as I find. I did not say that we hold a monopoly on anything, I said I felt this party from my experience is far more democratic in principal and practice than others. I find it odd you use the expulsions from Labour as an example when Militant is quite good as expulsions themselves – even the Ted Grant was thrown out for disagreement eventually.  If you agree that some do not practice internal democracy now, then what hope for a socialist future? 

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6. Use of exclamation marks is not confined to the Left – see SPGB replies above!

!!!!!!!!NOTE FROM ADMIN: Quote markers edited for ease of reading