2nd Scottish Independence Referendum
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Sturgeon opts for a late 2018/early 2019 independence referendum so to stay in the EU once Brexit details are known.
I think i mentioned on another thread that our gut feeling as to oppose independence because it divided workers…Now i think that case is weakened since it is Brexit which will divide workers.
We will no doubt advocate our spoiled vote policy as we did previously and suffer the same insignificant and negligible result being utterly side-lined in the debate.
This time i hope we can raise the profile and should consider joint discussion forums with those who will either share our tactic or go for abstention. I think we have to join together for a much louder voice on the issue of nationalism, either British, Scottish, or European.
alanjjohnstone wrote:Sturgeon opts for a late 2018/early 2019 independence referendum so to stay in the EU once Brexit details are known.I think i mentioned on another thread that our gut feeling as to oppose independence because it divided workers…Now i think that case is weakened since it is Brexit which will divide workers.We will no doubt advocate our spoiled vote policy as we did previously and suffer the same insignificant and negligible result being utterly side-lined in the debate. This time i hope we can raise the profile and should consider joint discussion forums with those who will either share our tactic or go for abstention. I think we have to join together for a much louder voice on the issue of nationalism, either British, Scottish, or European.Hi Alan, undoubtedly our position is unchanged, however we can use this referendum to highlight the ridiculous oportunistic shennanigans of the leftists. The Militant line, for example, was to support Scottish independence and support Brexit. Are they now going to support Scottish independence because they want continued EU membership for the Scots?As to your question on another thread, there has been one or two comments in the regional press and TV about joining in with out kilted cousins in the north. I suppose at least it would mean we could join a football league we had a chance of winning! The one thing I am not looking forward to is ignorant London based journalists going on about what happens north of Hadrian's Wall, ignoring the fact that it is oveer 70 miles from Wallsend to the Scottish border and that most of the county of Northumberland, a good chunk of Cumbria and the majority of the city of Newcastle is also "north of Hadrian's Wall"
I would have thought the news of the 2nd Indy Ref ould have provokes some interest in our fellow members but it may well be correct that the tongue-in-cheek reference on another thread to the Socialist Party of the Home Counties or Socialist Party of London is truer then we believehttp://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/forum/world-socialist-movement/kent-and-sussex-regional-branch-maidstone?page=19#comment-38685Perhaps, it is the realisation of the very weak state of the Party in Scotland that it might be better to ignore developments there. However, i thought my slightly heretical suggestion that we combine publicity with other political parties and groups and share a platform with those who share moreorless our political conclusion on independence for Scotland would have resulted in some sort of accusation of breaking our hostility clause.Although it is not viewed a likely prospect ..May refusing the referendum or insisting it is on her own time-table, we may well face a Catalonian-like unauthorised referendum, with certain political sanctions upon the Scottish Government and the SNP.,…perhaps a recipe for UDI.But i did onder about members who individually favoured a vote stay in the EU referendum on the grounds of unity with migrant workers yet a Vote No in the 2014 Scottish Referendum because it divided UK and Scottish workers if their position has changed on the 2 nd referendum.As for the Scottish claim on Northumbria and vice versa…As a Border family i refer you to my SS articlehttps://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2010s/2014/no-1318-june-2014/scottish-english-who-caresSome dates954 Edinburgh is lost to Scottish king Indulf.1018 Lothian is lost to the King of Scots Malcolm II.1139 Matilda grants Northumberland north of the Tees to David I of Scotland.1157 Henry II reclaims Northumberland from Scotland
alanjjohnstone wrote:I would have thought the news of the 2nd Indy Ref ould have provokes some interest in our fellow members but it may well be correct that the tongue-in-cheek reference on another thread to the Socialist Party of the Home Counties or Socialist Party of London is truer then we believehttp://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/forum/world-socialist-movement/kent-and-sussex-regional-branch-maidstone?page=19#comment-38685Perhaps, it is the realisation of the very weak state of the Party in Scotland that it might be better to ignore developments there. However, i thought my slightly heretical suggestion that we combine publicity with other political parties and groups and share a platform with those who share moreorless our political conclusion on independence for Scotland would have resulted in some sort of accusation of breaking our hostility clause.Although it is not viewed a likely prospect ..May refusing the referendum or insisting it is on her own time-table, we may well face a Catalonian-like unauthorised referendum, with certain political sanctions upon the Scottish Government and the SNP.,…perhaps a recipe for UDI.But i did onder about members who individually favoured a vote stay in the EU referendum on the grounds of unity with migrant workers yet a Vote No in the 2014 Scottish Referendum because it divided UK and Scottish workers if their position has changed on the 2 nd referendum.As for the Scottish claim on Northumbria and vice versa…As a Border family i refer you to my SS articlehttps://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/socialist-standard/2010s/2014/no-1318-june-2014/scottish-english-who-caresSome dates954 Edinburgh is lost to Scottish king Indulf.1018 Lothian is lost to the King of Scots Malcolm II.1139 Matilda grants Northumberland north of the Tees to David I of Scotland.1157 Henry II reclaims Northumberland from ScotlandAnother habit of the border familes was to give the first born son his mother's maiden name as a first name. hence the use of first names like Graham, Elliot, Ridley, Robson, Percy, Charlton, etc. as first names. I came across one or two guys with the first name Johnstone when I worked in Tynedale.
An aspect of Scottish independence not so far discussed is that if Scotland is independent as part of the EU presumably that would require the resumption of a hard border between the EU (Scotland) and the remainder of the UK. I don't know if you still have the family steel bonnets, Alan, but there might be reviving for us to do.During the lawless periods on the border whisky was distilled and smuggled across the border both ways, (Black Rory was a famous smuggler of illicit hooch out of Rothbury). Northumbrian whisky died out after the Act of Union but I might have to get the whisky still boiling again! (All profits to the party)I wondered why there was a set of spurs on my dinner plate tonight Alan, with a little note from my beloved saying long live Kinmont Willie!
I would think that they will argue for some sort of soft border as envisaged between Northern Ireland and the Republic.But previously the SNP suggested they would retain the pound. Is this now viable or will it be either a Scottish currency or the Euro?On smugglinghttp://www.smuggling.co.uk/gazetteer_scot.htmlAnd our national bard was employed to stop smuggling across the Solwayhttp://www.smuggling.co.uk/gazetteer_scot_10.htmlI think i raised the question of the Party after independence before. Scottish members would i think have to resort to being dual members of the SPGB for convenience sake and a new WSP (Scotland) party for election purposes. A convenient time for the Party to debate the continuance of the name SPGB. SPEW is already taken. But it seems that the enthusiasm is somewhat different from the first referendum…will it have such a high voter registration and turn-out and i have said many times previously, i was impressed by the open and vocal debate between the Yes and No camps. Will this be repeated?
As I've said, kin from either side of the border: 2,000 years of stealing each other's cattle: the family business will resume if IndyRef goes through…
Haven't you any relatives in Co Donegal or Co Monaghan? Resuming the family business is a done deal there.
ALB wrote:Haven't you any relatives in Co Donegal or Co Monaghan? Resuming the family business is a done deal there.i can see my future as smuggling pease pudding, stottie cake and broon ale going north and bringing truck loads of illicit irn bru, Edinburgh rock and scotch pies back the other way.
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alanjjohnstone wrote:think i raised the question of the Party after independence before. Scottish members would i think have to resort to being dual members of the SPGB for convenience sake and a new WSP (Scotland) party for election purposes. A convenient time for the Party to debate the continuance of the name SPGB. SPEW is already taken.We are already The Socialist Party. We could make a big issue about not being allowed to use this registered name at elections, when it has been allowed before.
Matt, if memory serves me right, in the Livingston by-election, the returning officer declined to permit the use of "The Socialist Party" since he claimed it would be confused with the Scottish Socialist Party who were also contesting the constituency. When you previously used it , perhaps no other party with socialist in its name as standing. In an independent Scotland, a new electoral commission would exist so it would be a new playing field so what was registered by ourselves previously with the UK Electoral Commission may well not apply but as i tentatively suggested a variant of WSP (Scotland) could be used.Socialist Party Scotland is Militant's name since breaking from SSP but whether registered by the uk or not i no idea.Registered by the UK: The Socialist Party (GB), World Socialist Party (GB), World Socialist Party (EU), World Socialist Movement, The Socialist Party (SP-GB)
This is clearer (at least on my browser):http://search.electoralcommission.org.uk/English/Registrations/PP110I don't suppose the media will be that interested in our "Leadership" election at Conference when we select a new one by lot.
I should have done a direct link, ALB, rather than a c and p. so thanks for thatOur new leader will be blogged by ourselves (is he going to be photoed…the case is the face ) and just maybe someone will pick up on it. I will remind Libcom discussion list of the outcome to perhaps spark some exchanges….(BTW, Is my name going to be included? Party Leader Johnstone has a nice ring…or maybe just simply Fuhrer Johnstone will suffice, i'm sure Matt has already called me that at a branch meeting)But really this is another event that the Media Committee should make the most of with a press release to all the news outlets with a background explanation of our democracy and no leader principle. They have the email list so it is simply drafting the statement and clicking send. Perhaps the "lucky" winner can be carried down Clapham High Street on a "throne" or "litter" or "sedan chair". A bit of street theatre of the "Heid-yin" riding on the backs of his party slaves with devotees following in the procession…a video made and posted on You Tube and Facebook…Didn't someone say we lacked humour in our publicity?
We still stood a candidate as The Socialist Party in the 1994 Euro's.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lothians_%28European_Parliament_constituency%29I see on the paper it just says Socialist (GB).However the manifesto etc just had The Socialist Party.My point was not about any hypothetical new kailyard with the GDP of a Californian suburd,, masquerading as a nation but about reclaiming the Socialist Party name from its misuse by Trots wherever they stand, even if we have to add (WSM) to the official description.
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