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SocialistPunk
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Sorry to disappoint Linda.

Vin should be aware that I call it like I see it, and that I'm not new to criticising the SPGB and individual members at times.

It boils down to the old chestnut of moderation interpretation. There are set procedures as to how disagreements with moderation decisions are contested. It seems Vin doesn't agree with those procedures when they don't work in his favour.

I've been warned now and then by Mod1 and mostly accepted I was at fault. I do recall an incident in which I disagreed with Mod1 and challenged the decision via PM. Mod1 upheld his decision and that was that. I never felt the need to question his decision on the forum. If I had, it would have been out of order and I would have faced a further warning, if I'd continued on the forum I would've faced another warning and if continued, a suspension. In such a scenario a suspension would be my fault for throwing a tantrum on the forum.

As for "tantrum" being an unhelpful word, you are joking, please tell me you are joking? I recall Vin going on about his use of certain, fruitier, words (directed at others) being fine, that members should all get thicker skins etc. Now my use of "tantrum" is suddenly unhelpful?


lindanesocialist
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SocialistPunk wrote:

As for "tantrum" being an unhelpful word, you are joking, please tell me you are joking? I recall Vin going on about his use of certain, fruitier, words (directed at others) being fine, that members should all get thicker skins etc. Now my use of "tantrum" is suddenly unhelpful?

You better talk to Vin about that. Perhaps he finds 'tantrum' and 'fruitier' words OK. I have my own opinion on that

I do have my own opinions believe it or not. Perhaps you should ask Vin about what he said. Why ask me?

But you cant  can you? Because now you have given your support to the censors. Well good luck with that

Anyway I have ironing and washing to do but I intend to monitor the backstabbing on our way out

 

 

Bijou Drains
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Hi Linda

 

Re Vin's suspension, I think the issues are getting more and more muddied and becoming a "He said this" and "He said the other", with insults flying around, etc. However, as can be seen by posts I have made, I do also think that the whole issue of moderation and management of access to internet activity is a big mess and is in danger of becoming a running sore in the party and distracting us from the REAL TASK facing the party which is the dissemination of Socialist ideas and for the  NERB developing a thriving branch and putting forward the Socialist case.

My view is that this is too big an issue to be turned into a debate about who said what and did what to who, when they did it, etc. I think there have been insults and stupidity on both sides of this argument, I have my own view on who shoulders the most blame for this, but I am not going to share them on this site, as in my opinion this only serves to fan the flames of what is now in huge danger of becoming the kind of facile debate about personalities that has flared in the party before. We need as individuals, as a branch and as a Party to rise above that level of debate.

I've got to say, Linda, that I was also disappointed on a personal level, that Vin responded to the difficulties he faced in the way he did, I had spoken to him in the days before and put forward my own view that the issues needed to be dealt with on a de-personalised and branch basis, which Vin concurred with at that time. I have spoken to members in other branches and there is a growing acknowledgement that there are issues about moderation and also wider issues about how we manage party democracy, if the internet becomes a tool for democratic processes in the party.

I think the time has come for people to take a deep breath, let what has happened in the past rest in the past and move on to the issues to be tackled. I also think it is time for all parties of this discussion to display a bit of maturity, the trading of insults and threats actually diminishes the case for socialist cooperation. if we cannot manage the forum in a cooperative and mature manner, how can we expect workers to take our case for the administration of a socialist world seriously?


lindanesocialist
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Tim Kilgallon wrote:

I think the time has come for people to take a deep breath, let what has happened in the past rest in the past and move on to the issues to be tackled.

If only frown

But vin remains banned from all forums because people will not move on. He is refused 'trusted' positions by party committees because of personal animosity of the past. He has literally begged members of the IC to move on but they have been dismissive and sarcastic. He has only just found out that the IC refused to hand over the twitter account because his past behaviour shows he is not to be trusted. Not to be trusted? I remember him designing printing and delivering  thousands of party leaflets and oranising 100s of meetings. Why have we waited this long to find that out? You wouldnt call that democracy?He should have been charged and given the right to defend himself. He is in different tier or caste. 

If anyone was really interested in moving on then the IC should hand over the twitter account and reinstate vin on the forums immediately

He has asked me to say that as a matter of principle he will not remain in a two tier party. We are all supposed to be trusted comrades or we shouldn't be in the same party

It is the IC that needs to move on. If the EC accepts our resignation tomorrow, there will be no moving on we will be moving out.

I do not have the time or inclination to trawl through emails and threads but I have had to listen to his frustration over the past few years. In fact my interest in the party was never that strong but Vin needed some support and I have given him voice.

That is it for me.  Good luck

By the way SP the reference to 'backstabbing' was not to you, vin says you have been very supportive

 

 

SocialistPunk
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Hi again Linda,

I would be saddened to see you and Vin leave. The two of you have a lot to contribute to the branch and just as the branch is emerging from hibernation, now of all times would be the worst time to leave.

I have always been open with Vin regarding how I stand and in this instance I think Vin has been pushing his luck in arguing on the forum with the moderator a bit too often.
Several years ago a big bust up on the forum took place regarding moderation. From the debris emerged a better system that on the whole protects both users and moderators more than it did before. It's not perfect, but it's a work in progress. It's obvious Vin has issues with the present set up and that's why he was asked by the branch to back off from banging heads with the moderator and take it up with us.

Here's a scenario that might help to explain why confronting the moderator on forum is problematic. Say I get a warning I disagree with, so I question it on the thread. The moderator explains to me on the thread. I disagree and say so on the thread. Once more the moderator comes on to explain. This could go on and on, tying up the thread and turning it into a personality issue, ultimately drowning out the subject of the original thread.

If open discussion regarding moderation decisions are what you and Vin feel is needed, with perhaps a dedicated part of the forum set up for that? If so, it's a subject that should be brought up with the branch and if agreed by the branch, the process of getting the Party to look at further changes on the forum can be set in motion.

Clashing with the moderator over and over again does not create a sympathetic reception for such change, as Party members may see such a scenario as pandering to the whims of egos etc. This is why Vin was asked to back off. Vin has harmed his case more than he probably realises.

I urge Vin and yourself not to resign from the Party and for Vin to do what is needed to get online access to the branch. If it means swallowing a bit pride in accepting he made an error of judgement, then so be it.


SocialistPunk
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Tim,

I'm not sure what you've been reading but there's been no trading of insults or threats during this discussion between Linda and I.


Bijou Drains
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Hi Steve

Sorry mate, I wasn't referring to you and Linda, what I meant by "My view is that this is too big an issue to be turned into a debate about who said what and did what to who, when they did it, etc. I think there have been insults and stupidity on both sides of this argument," referred to the on going debate between various forum members about the twitter account, the debate about moderation, the debate about the IC, Vin's suspension, etc. etc.

I think that's half the trouble on forums, the written word is so often (innocently) constured differently than they way the writer meant it. Apologies again if I implied that you and Linda were having words. (I'll stick to writing in Geordie in the future, at least I know how to say what I mean in Geordie!)


SocialistPunk
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Tim,

The bit of your post that made me think you were refering to me and Linda was the following.

"I also think it is time for all parties of this discussion to display a bit of maturity, the trading of insults and threats actually diminishes the case for socialist cooperation,"

But don't worry, I never took offence, just thought it strange you might be having a dig at Linda and me.


Bijou Drains
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Hi Steve, what I meant by that was by this discussion was the overall debate about the internet, twitter, suspensions, etc. I was trying to say that it doesn't give the best impression of our party. What I do agree with is the need to air these matters and as I have said frequently the need to ensure that the internet side of the party operates in a fully democratic and accountable way, but I do think we need to be more responsible in the way we do it. (and I include myself in that as well)

lindanesocialist
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Vin wrote:

 I will be moving a motion at our next meeting that NERB asks the EC to Immediately suspend all members of the present Internet Committee pending an  investigation into their actions

 

1         Conspiring to mislead the EC, NERB and the party about twitter accounts @worldsocialism and @world_socialism

 

2         Showing deliberate bias and prejudices against a NERB member  and by their  actions causing  disruption of branch  organisation and the due democratic process

 

I will be expanding on this shortly

 

Having looked further into this matter, I second this MOTION. 

The first thing I will say is that it is unacceptable that a member of this branch is not allowed to take part in branch on-line  meetings and would suggest an urgent online meeting of the branch to deal with this matter.

On the MOTION (Part 1)

An EC member has stated on this forum that he supported a resolution on the basis of what the Internet Committee had told them.

It can be shown that the IC misled the EC when it denied that it knew the owner of the twitter account @world_socialism.

Vin had  informed them prior that he had opened the account as NERB Social Media Officer

This is the reason Vin is banned

MOTION (part 2)

Nothing Vin has done on this or any other forum - since rejoining -  has not also been done by other members: members who remain on the forum.

 

 

 

 

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