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Socialism and Change

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MBellemare
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Is LBird, serious about this global population "Vote" on all scientific theories? am I reading this correctly! A Universal "Vote" on what constitutes scientific "verity"? What does this have to do with Socialism and Change? That a socialist society would "Vote" en mass, what is truth and falsehood, for the society at large??? 

 

robbo203
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MBellemare wrote:

Is LBird, serious about this global population "Vote" on all scientific theories? am I reading this correctly! A Universal "Vote" on what constitutes scientific "verity"? What does this have to do with Socialism and Change? That a socialist society would "Vote" en mass, what is truth and falsehood, for the society at large??? 

 

 

I regret to say that, yes, he is serious about such an idea but I can assure you no socialist here or anywhere would endorse such a crackpot proposal.  He has never once explained how such a proposal would work in practice or what would be the point of the exercise but he conrinues to plug this harebrained scheme on this forum to the bemusement of all

 

Ive been accused of being an "elitist" and an " individualist"  for assuming that scientists "know better".  But thats so silly when you think about it.  A trained nuclear physicist is always going to know better than a layperson about nuclear physics unless LBird proposes 1) that we no longer have any trained nuclear physicists or 2) that everyone becomes a trained nuclear physicist in which case what about all those thousands of other occupations where differences in ability and competence will arise?  Are we all meant to  become trained up in those too?

 

LBird's big problem is that he doesnt understand democracy or what its for. Socialist democracy which I fullly support wll apply to the realm of practical decision making, not the determination of sciientific truth.  There is simply no point in voting to determine the truth of a scientific theory and scientists will have no more power in a socialist society than anyone else because the social relationship characteristic of a socialist society - free access to goods and serices plus volunteer labour  - dissolve the very basis of political power as such.

 

As for me and others being an " individualist" - a jibe that LBird routinely makes -  I would counter that his view of a future socialist society is more akin to a beehive colony than a human society of free individuals.  Iroically democracy would be meaningless if it extingushed the capacity of individuals to express themselves by chosing by means of a vote.  .  Embarrasingly for him and for all his extravagant claims to be a Marxist I note he has nothing to say on the question of Marx's own thinking which contains a strong streak of individualism, as LBird  would see it.  See here  http://www.worldsocialism.org/spgb/forum/general-discussion/marx-and-individual

LBird
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Joined: 21/07/2013

MBellemare wrote:

Is LBird, serious about this global population "Vote" on all scientific theories? am I reading this correctly! A Universal "Vote" on what constitutes scientific "verity"? What does this have to do with Socialism and Change? That a socialist society would "Vote" en mass, what is truth and falsehood, for the society at large??? 

Given that you've not followed a very long political, ideological and philosophical discussion here, over years, you don't know the context of this debate.

But, having said that, perhaps you can answer a question that the SPGB seems incapable of doing.

If you are a 'democratic socialist' (and I'm assuming that you are, for now, but you can correct me later), who or what would determine 'truth' within a democratic socialist society?

To make you aware of the central issue (and so more careful of your answer), this is a question about political power and who wields it.

I'm simply asking, if not society employing democratic methods, which elite is going to make decisions about 'truth'?


robbo203
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LBird wrote:

MBellemare wrote:

Is LBird, serious about this global population "Vote" on all scientific theories? am I reading this correctly! A Universal "Vote" on what constitutes scientific "verity"? What does this have to do with Socialism and Change? That a socialist society would "Vote" en mass, what is truth and falsehood, for the society at large??? 

Given that you've not followed a very long political, ideological and philosophical discussion here, over years, you don't know the context of this debate.

But, having said that, perhaps you can answer a question that the SPGB seems incapable of doing.

If you are a 'democratic socialist' (and I'm assuming that you are, for now, but you can correct me later), who or what would determine 'truth' within a democratic socialist society?

To make you aware of the central issue (and so more careful of your answer), this is a question about political power and who wields it.

I'm simply asking, if not society employing democratic methods, which elite is going to make decisions about 'truth'?

 

You see, Michel, how Lbird studiously avoids answring the questions

 

1) what is the point of democraticaly deciding the truth of scientific theories?

2)  how is it remotely practical to implement tens of thousands of global plebiscites on the truth of all these scientific theories?

 

Instead, LBird resorts to the cunning ruse of suggesting that if you dont submit the truth of scientific theories to a worldwide democratic vote this somehow vests the scientists iwith more "political power" than the layperson.  He  makes no attempt to justify this astonishing  claim which is unsurpirsing since as a Leninist he does not really understand that nature of a socialist cum communist society

 

Sad to say, it is an all too familiar pattern....

Tim Kilgallon
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Not only that Michel L Bird has so far failed to give us any indication about how the truth behind the following crucial questions will be established in a future society:

1. "What came first the chicken or the egg?"

2 "Is the glass half full or half empty?"

3. "How much is that doggy in the window?"

4. (One for the football fans, or as you would call it Soccer) "Who's your father referee" (The current consensus goes along the lines of "you haven't got one, you're a bastard, you're a bastard referee")

5 (And probably the most important question) is it "the one who denied it, who supplied it" or is it as, I suspect "The one that smelt it that dealt it"

(On a serious note, perhaps when reading through L Bird's ridiculous, long winded, pompous, pseudo-intellectual postings, you can now see why those of us who are serious about promoting Socialist ideas on this forum, get a little bit tetchy at times!)


Vin
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Joined: 03/12/2011

Will the workers first decide on truth globally then invite workers to join their movement that has already discovered and voted on truth?

Sounds Stalinist to me, it cetainly doesn't sound democratic . Don't think I'll join LBirds Stalinist  Nut House. I will stick to the SPGB.

 

Another question LBird refuses to answer is: Is his 'democratic communism' a classless society? Or one in which the proletariat holds power over other groups??

 

Don't expect any answers. We have been waiting years.

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