Would you say that the abolition of the wages system is your first (indeed only) demand.
Party Aims
Wed, 22/02/2012 - 4:25pm
#1
Party Aims
Edited by gnome on 22/02/2012 - 6:23pm
Wed, 22/02/2012 - 10:30pm
#2
Well, you could if "the wages system" is seen as a synomym for capitalist or profit system. After all, wage-labour and capital go together and you can't have one without the other. In that case "abolition of the wages system" and "abolition of the profit system" mean the same thing, expressed differently.
But if you mean (just) wanting to "abolish wages" the same objection can be raised against this as saying we (just) want to abolish money. Obviously, to just abolish wages or money and leave everything else about capitalist society unchanged would lead to chaos and in fact to the eventual re-emergence of both.
To be absolutely precise, what we want is to establish a system of society based on the common ownership and democratic control of the means of production by the whole community, a state of affairs in which wages and money would not exist. This could be said to be our only aim.
Having said this, slogans like "Abolish the Wages System" and "Abolish Money" could have a use to intrigue people to investigate more what we mean.
Thu, 23/02/2012 - 3:23pm
#4
For your candidate to claim that your first and only aim is the abolition of the wages system is misleading. I understand that one of the implications of the working class taking control of the state and dispossessing the capitalist class will be the abolition of capital and wages but we cannot abolish the wages system until then.
One of our candidates replied to a similar point made recently (February 15th) on the Party's election blog:-
"I consider myself, almost, taken to task. Given, though, that the wages system is the essence of capitalism, you cannot abolish it within capitalism. Yes, it's conceivable that it could be abolished to be replaced by some other class society: a restored serfdom; a return to chattel slavery; or something new altogether. As our commenter notes, however, we're calling on the working class to do this for themselves.
Indeed, I would agree with the prescription that political action to achieve common ownership is a prerequisite for abolishing the wages system; and the only way in which I think it could realistically be done. That said, we start from the conscious knowledge that we are people who live by selling our labour power, and our struggle to free ourselves must include ending that condition."
Abolition of the wages system is not mentioned in your Aims and Declaration of Principles nor does it imply common ownership and democratic control. Many societies in the past did not have a wages system but they could hardly have been described as socialist.
You have the cart before the horse :) The Object of the Party clearly states:-
The establishment of a system of society based upon the common ownership and democratic control of the means and instruments for producing and distributing wealth by and in the interest of the whole community
In a classless society where wealth is held in common the medium of exchange ceases to exist as it would serve no purpose, and all the associated paraphernalia, including the wages system, is consigned to the dustbin of history.
Thu, 23/02/2012 - 5:55pm
#5
So, the abolition of the wages system is NOT your first and only demand? Some workers now believe it is and will dismiss the SPGB for that reason. They will probably believe, as I do, that 'Many societies in the past did not have a wages system but they could hardly have been described as socialist'. Indeed some were very oppressive.
Thu, 23/02/2012 - 6:10pm
#6
This is nit-picking! Somebody could equally argue that to call for the abolition of capitalism is not necessarily to call for socialism as there have been non-capitalist societies in the past some of which (in fact most of which) were very oppressive. OK, socialism (the common ownership and democratic control of the means of production by the whole community) is our aim, but give us a break and allow us to present this in different ways.
Thu, 23/02/2012 - 6:39pm
#7
My criticisms were meant to be constructive. It is my hope that socialism succeeds. Having found the party for the second time, my first impression was that it had drifted away from its original position. The party has in the past attracted people who liked the idea of a moneyless society without class struggle/consiousness and revolution. Indeed some in the occupy movement are calling for the abolition of the wages system but I am not about to buy a tent. If the party is attepting to attract the attention of memnbers of the occupy movement then thats fair enough. I wont waste any more of your time 'nit-picking,
Thu, 23/02/2012 - 7:21pm
#8
Our use of the slogan "Abolition of the Wages System" has nothing to do with wanting to attract Occupiers but is something we inherited from Marx who, as I'm sure you know, ended his talk to English trade unionists in 1865 as follows:
At the same time, and quite apart from the general servitude involved in the wages system, the working class ought not to exaggerate to themselves the ultimate working of these everyday struggles. They ought not to forget that they are fighting with effects, but not with the causes of those effects; that they are retarding the downward movement, but not changing its direction; that they are applying palliatives, not curing the malady. They ought, therefore, not to be exclusively absorbed in these unavoidable guerilla fights incessantly springing up from the never ceasing encroachments of capital or changes of the market. They ought to understand that, with all the miseries it imposes upon them, the present system simultaneously engenders the material conditions and the social forms necessary for an economical reconstruction of society. Instead of the conservative motto: “A fair day's wage for a fair day's work!” they ought to inscribe on their banner the revolutionary watchword: “Abolition of the wages system!" [his emphasis]
Trades Unions work well as centers of resistance against the encroachments of capital. They fail partially from an injudicious use of their power. They fail generally from limiting themselves to a guerilla war against the effects of the existing system, instead of simultaneously trying to change it, instead of using their organized forces as a lever for the final emancipation of the working class that is to say the ultimate abolition of the wages system.
In addition, in 1881 Engels wrote a series of artocles for the English trade union paper the Labour Standard. Here's how he ended one of them:
The working class remains what it was, and what our Chartist forefathers were not afraid to call it, a class of wages slaves. Is this to be the final result of all this labour, self-sacrifice, and suffering? Is this to remain for ever the highest aim of British workmen? Or is the working class of this country at last to attempt breaking through this vicious circle, and to find an issue out of it in a movement for the ABOLITION OF THE WAGES SYSTEM ALTOGETHER? [his emphasis]
So, don't worry, Comrade, we haven't departed from our principles. We are still what we were when you a member.
Thu, 23/02/2012 - 7:32pm
#9
One thing you can be certain about is that the SPGB has not "drifted away from its original position"; it's the same today as it was as its inception in 1904. We do not primarily call for the abolition of the wages system or the abolition of money.
This is a common misapprehension of the party case. Money could be abolished by the implementation of universal slavery, or by the creation of barter systems. The end of money or the wages system is a secondary effect of the emancipation of labour. We do not necessarily have common cause with those who merely advocate the end of the wages system. Having said that, we are more than happy to talk to those in the 'Occupy Movement' who express ideas similar to our own, as well as to those who don't; in essence they're no different than any other members of the working class.
Thu, 23/02/2012 - 7:54pm
#10
Then send me an application for membership! There is no where else for me to go. Cant remember if it was a Form A or Form C?
Thu, 23/02/2012 - 8:06pm
#11
Just remembered, the Form A was the form submitted to the EC by the Branch. Do I need to attend a Branch meeting?
For your candidate to claim that your first and only aim is the abolition of the wages system is misleading. I understand that one of the implications of the working class taking control of the state and dispossessing the capitalist class will be the abolition of capital and wages but we cannot abolish the wages system until then.
Abolition of the wages system is not mentioned in your Aims and Declaration of Principles nor does it imply common ownership and democratic control. Many societies in the past did not have a wages system but they could hardly have been described as socialist.