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Catalonian Referendum

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robbo203
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Joined: 07/11/2011

I think the point needs to be made that while there are two separate issues of democratc rights (which socialists support) and Catalan nationalism (which socialists oppose along with Spanish, or any other, nationalism) , the situation on the ground is a lot more complex and confusing. Some of the anger that is boiling up agaist the government comes from people who are not really in support of independence but who are nevertheless incensed at the actions of the government in trying to prevent a democratic vote on the matter.

 

The government's line is essentially that the referendum is unconsititutional and illegal (because the Spanish people as a whole need to vote on the matter not just the Catalans) which strikes me as a particularly weak argument.  Laws that are made can be unmade or amended; they are not set in concrete. This rigid attitude of theirs means there is no way to exorcise the devil of Catalonian nationalism. They have boxed theselves into a corner. Ironically had they cleared the way for a proper, Catalonia only, legal referendum on the question of Catalonian independence, there seems little doubt that they would have won and probably by a handsome margin.  The large number of Catalonian workers who did not vote or effectvely boycotted the referendum, did so becuase they could see no point in voting if the government refuses to recognise the result.  This section of the population would undoubtedly come out against independence if a legal and binding referendum was held.

 

As it is, the cause of Catalan independence has been boosted because it makes the Catalan nationalists to be the upholders of democracy and their opponents, the promoters of repression. Some waverers on the issue of independence will no doubt now decide to throw in  their lot with the nationalists having seen the ugly face of the Spanish state in action

 

And it could get uglier.  There are rumours on the social media of a troop train being sent from Madrid to restore law and order,  I dont know if this is fake news or not but it will add to the rising tensions.  Catalan nationalism doesnt really have a tradition of using military cum terroristic measures to advance its cause (unlike say, the Basque separatists  and ETA which has now been officially disarmed) , the only exception to this  being the tiny Terra Lliure group which operated between 1978 and 1995 and only managed to assessinate 1 individual.  But who is to say, some more viable military wing of Catalan nationalism might not emerge out of the frustration, even possibly a false flag operation ,  giving the government all the excuse it needs to clamp down on the pesky nationalists?

alanjjohnstone
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Joined: 22/06/2011

The latest developments have been a fairly robust regional general strike purely on the democracy infringements by the State and its imported police.

The Spanish king parroting the government's official line in a speech what has been described as another inept intervention that entrenched the separatists even deeper.

Also, we have the Catalan president now threatening UDI within a matter of days

.And this will have to bring forth some sort of EU/UN response, even though both say it is an internal matter for the Spanish to work out.

The situation is escalating. And i have no idea where it will lead...But hopefully not to another bloody civil war

And just to bring matters a bit closer to home, SNP's Nicola Sturgeon several months ago was also talking about a unilateral referendum on independence before back-pedaling so it could have been a very much similar situation facing us. But wiser minds prevailed.

"I have no country to fight for; my country is the Earth, and I am a citizen of the World." - Eugene V. Debs

alanjjohnstone
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Joined: 22/06/2011

A brief SOYMB blog post on the topic 

http://socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.com/2017/10/catalonia-or-catalu...

"I have no country to fight for; my country is the Earth, and I am a citizen of the World." - Eugene V. Debs

moderator1
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Joined: 03/11/2013

Interesting insight here:  https://lluisolle.quora.com/The-Catalonian-referendum-1-Oct

It seems the so called referendum was not democratic.

Vin
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Joined: 03/12/2011

moderator1 wrote:

It seems the so called referendum was not democratic.

Yes, that's what the King of Spain said. on Sky News LOL but neither he nor Sky News are democratic. State bullies beating up people attempting to vote is definitely undemocratic and should be  opposed by socialists.

How can the right to vote on an issue and express a preference be 'undemocratic'?

By the way every single ballot box is seeking nationalist and sectional interests. It's a red herring to use it to attack Spanish workers and we shouldn; t do it. 

Vin
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Joined: 03/12/2011

alanjjohnstone wrote:

A brief SOYMB blog post on the topic 

http://socialismoryourmoneyback.blogspot.com/2017/10/catalonia-or-catalu...

Good post Alan, I think you are right to deal with the attack on the ballot box first.

Young Master Smeet
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Joined: 15/11/2011

To play evil's advocate a second. 

Imagine if in say, Alabama, a eferendum were called to restore Jim Crowe law, and a federal court ruled the referendum illegal, then police action to prevent the act of violence that was the referendum itself may be legitimate. 

If Sunderland City council called an independence referendum, then it's likely that the councillors could be surcharged, and a court order staying the referendum would mean that the vote could not go ahead. This is utterly fantastic, as it assumes that Mackems could learn to read.

Tim Kilgallon
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Joined: 17/11/2015

Young Master Smeet wrote:

If Sunderland City council called an independence referendum, then it's likely that the councillors could be surcharged, and a court order staying the referendum would mean that the vote could not go ahead. This is utterly fantastic, as it assumes that Mackems could learn to read.

Hmmm one of the earliest books in the English Language was written by the Venerable Bede, who was a Mackem. Don't like to stick up for my red and white neighbours, but facts is facts!


Young Master Smeet
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Joined: 15/11/2011

The Spanish need to rad up what happened in ireland. This is not smart:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41523250

Quote:
The "sedition" hearing is taking place at the national criminal court in Madrid. The defendants are accused of failing to help Guardia Civil police tackle thousands of pro-independence protesters outside the Catalan Economy Department in Barcelona on 20 September.

Along with commander Trapero, another Catalan police officer and two leading independence activists are also being questioned in Madrid.

Leading newspaper El Pais says the accusation against the Mossos is extraordinary in post-Franco democratic Spain.

The crime of sedition has been in every Spanish penal code since 1822 and carries a potential prison term of up to 15 years. It amounts to rebellion against state decisions or national security forces.

The Catalan parliament plans to meet despite a court order banning it, they'll probably be arrested, and on to civil war, but lets hope not.

Vin
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Joined: 03/12/2011

Young Master Smeet wrote:

This is utterly fantastic, as it assumes that Mackems could learn to read.

surpriseangry wee yay tarkin tee, lad? Ar can reed alreet! Lad haddawayanshite ,  Wor lass 'll giya a swipe. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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