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Catalonian Referendum

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ALB
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Joined: 22/06/2011

I see the Trots are already on the independantist bandwagon:

https://www.thecommunists.net/worldwide/europe/catalonian-referendum-was...

http://groupemarxiste.info/?p=3945

And the Catalan government doesn't even pretend to have any leftist or radical project, just to have an independent Catalan state so the capitalist class will be able to pay less in taxation !

Vin
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Joined: 03/12/2011

ALB wrote:

And the Catalan government doesn't even pretend to have any leftist or radical project, just to have an independent Catalan state so the capitalist class will be able to pay less in taxation !

I haven't read the trot stuff but surley the reason for the ballot is not as important as the State preventing it from taking place?

Didn't we support the Polish workers struggle for 'democracy'  ? Or has the party's position changed?

 

1.3  This Conference re-affirms the stand taken in the September 1939 Socialist Standard and repeated in the September 1989 Socialist Standard, that the Socialist Party of Great Britain wholeheartedly supports the efforts of workers everywhere to secure democratic rights against the powers of suppression. Whilst we avoid any association with parties or political groups seeking to administer capitalism we emphasise that freedom of movement and expression, the freedom to organise in trade unions, to organise politically and to participate in elections are of great importance to all workers and are vital to the success of the socialist movement. (1990)

ALB
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Joined: 22/06/2011

There are two separate issues (1) whether or Catalonia should break away from Spain and become a separate, capitalist state, and (2) whether there should be a referendum on the question.  The reaction of the Spanish government has shifted the debate from (1) to (2), which has enabled the Catalan regional government to win sympathy and support on that basis rather than for the less popular breakaway from Spain.

While Socialists have no sympathy or support whatsoever for setting up yet another capitalist State and are implacably opposed to Catalan as to all other nationalisms, our position on the referendum can be, as Vin points out, more nuanced -- even if the question on the ballot paper was irrelevant the vote should not have been prevented. I imagine that if there was a socialist party in Spain it would have taken the same attitude as we took to the Euroreferendum here --- that it was an irrelevant side-show and that those who wanted socialism should write "socialismo mundial" across their ballot papers. Abstention would have been another option, but generally we favour taking part in elections where they are called, even if only to cast a write-in vote, just to show we regard them as a potential weapon a socialist working class can use to win political control and end capitalism.

Actually, although it is being denounced for brutality, it was not in a position to employ its full (paper) power. The New York Times reported the Spanish Minister of Justice as saying:

Quote:
Most polling stations stayed open on Sunday, he said, “because the security forces decided that it wasn’t worth using force because of the consequences that it could have.”
On the other hand, it will have had some support in other parts of Spain from Spanish nationalists.

Vin
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Joined: 03/12/2011

It seems party members are showing no sympathy for  Catalonian workers who are being prevented from entering the ballot booth  by the Capitalist State bullies: Even though the SPGB supports them or should be supporting them.

 

gnome
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Joined: 14/10/2011

Vin wrote:

It seems party members are showing no sympathy for  Catalonian workers who are being prevented from entering the ballot booth  by the Capitalist State bullies: Even though the SPGB supports them or should be supporting them.

There are two separate but related issues here: 

1) The Party obviously 'supports' the limited right of workers to vote in liberal bourgeois democracies which has been achieved as a result of rivalries within the owning class and pressure from the disenfranchised propertyless majority.

However,

2) The Party has very little 'sympathy' for those workers who continue to vote for the continuation of their enslavement; in the case of Catalonian workers their preference for one capitalist state over another in the mistaken belief that they, as workers, will somehow benefit.

alanjjohnstone
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Joined: 22/06/2011

As been pointed out...our position is to defend democracy as a  tool to establish socialism. No doubt there will be socialists who are engaging in the stoppages of work taking place to condemn the actions of the police and of the central government - who claim they are acting at the behest of the Supreme Court which said Barcelona regional government had to authority to call the referendum.

The Party is well capable of holding two views on the referendum...protecting the freedom of expression and the right of workers to be heard no matter what they are saying and positioning ourselves as we did in the Scottish Referendum . 

Rajoy could have sat back and won the referendum by default.

Vin, i'm in the middle of  writing a Material World article focused on Catalan nationalism so if the SS editors approve, it may clear up a few things on where we stand.

Our interests are the interests of the working class world-wide. As already been made clear - defending bourgeois freedoms is part of that...advocating a new nation-state is not. Unlike what they said about Gerald Ford, Party members can chew gum and walk at the same time.

"I have no country to fight for; my country is the Earth, and I am a citizen of the World." - Eugene V. Debs

Vin
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Joined: 03/12/2011

Twisting things here; I don;t need anything "cleared up".Nor anything 'pointed out'  

Your trying to teach your grandmother to suck eggs. I know all about nationalism, UK elections are all about that but we support the ballot box

I support the UK workers right to vote and my sympathies would be with them if UK state bullies were beating them at the ballot stations.  I wouldnt say "Well they were going to to vote Labour anyway so good on the Pigs" I apply that same principle to all workers even though they don't vote for me.

I have to take it from comments here and on facebook that most SPGB members do not support the Catalonian workers right to vote. Or the have no sympathy at all for them.  This is not the current position the Party.  Until Conference decisions are overturned.

 

 

Vin
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Joined: 03/12/2011

gnome wrote:

2) The Party has very little 'sympathy' for those workers who continue to vote for the continuation of their enslavement; in the case of Catalonian workers their preference for one capitalist state over another in the mistaken belief that they, as workers, will somehow benefit.

This applies to ALL "democratic" elections until workers vote for socialism. The more important issue is the intervention of the state  preventing workers from voting. Our case is based on the ballot box regardless of what workers vote for. OR perhaps not?

 

alanjjohnstone
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Joined: 22/06/2011

Quote:
I have to take it from comments here and on facebook that most SPGB members do not support the Catalonian workers right to vote. Or the have no sympathy at all for them.
  

 

Vin, i'm not on Facebook so i cannot comment on those but i don't see any such criticism that we do not support the Catalans right to express their political view in the referendum and denounce the Central government's repressive measures to halt the referendum

I am right now restricted to Starfucks internet so i am reading posts hastily so i may have over-looked some...Perhaps you can give me the #messages of the posts that you feel have not defended the democratic rights of workers to demonstrate their political opinion, regardless of whether we agree with them or not.

 i have submitted a Material World article for next month's SS on the topic which i hope meets with the approval of the editors. It will be a belated observation but better late than never.

"I have no country to fight for; my country is the Earth, and I am a citizen of the World." - Eugene V. Debs

alanjjohnstone
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Joined: 22/06/2011
Quote:
BBC
 wrote:Catalan officials later said 90% of those who voted backed independence in Sunday's vote. The turnout was 42.3%.That's only 38% of the electorate.
But we have to add to this the nearly three-quarter a million votes stolen by the police and assume that the vast majority of those were separatist. Which means over 52% were in favour. (i'm trusting Libcom arithmetic)...Not overwhelming a majority but neither was the No vote in the Scottish referendum despite the claims that it was decisive... 

"I have no country to fight for; my country is the Earth, and I am a citizen of the World." - Eugene V. Debs

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