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Jesus was a communist

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Dave B
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Book one CHAP. LXVIII.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0416.htm

Dave B
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There is this by the way.

 

Justyn the martry.

 

Quite a serious document by contemporary standards and clearly dateable.

 

It is of interest many other reasons.

 

 

 

The First Apology

 

 

Chapter 1. Address

 

To the Emperor Titus Ælius Adrianus Antoninus Pius Augustus Cæsar, and to his son Verissimus the Philosopher, and to Lucius the Philosopher, the natural son of Cæsar, and the adopted son of Pius, a lover of learning, and to the sacred Senate, with the whole People of the Romans, I, Justin, the son of Priscus and grandson of Bacchius, natives of Flavia Neapolis in Palestine, present this address and petition in behalf of those of all nations who are unjustlyhatedand wantonly abused, myself being one of them.

 

 

It has commie stuff in it

 

Chapter 14. The demons misrepresent Christian doctrine

 

……..we who valued above all things the acquisition of wealthand possessions, now bring what we have into a common stock, and communicate to every one in need;

 

And a detailed discussion of another contemporary magician in Rome for which there is no other record.

 

Chapter 26. Magicians not trusted by Christians

 

And, thirdly, because after Christ's ascension into heaven the devils put forward certain men who said that they themselves were gods; and they were not only not persecutedby you, but even deemed worthy of honours. There was a Samaritan, Simon, a native of the village called Gitto, who in the reign of Claudius Cæsar, and in your royal city of Rome, did mighty acts of magic, by virtue of the art of the devils operating in him. He was considered a god, and as a god was honoured by you with a statue, which statuewas erected on the river Tiber, between the two bridges, and bore this inscription, in the language of Rome:— Simoni Deo Sancto, To Simon the holyGod. And almost all the Samaritans, and a few even of other nations, worship him, and acknowledge him as the first god; and a woman, Helena, who went about with him at that time, and had formerly been a prostitute, they say is the first idea generated by him. And a man, Menander, also a Samaritan, of the town Capparetæa, a discipleof Simon, and inspired by devils, we knowto have deceived many while he was in Antiochby his magical art. He persuaded those who adhered to him that they should never die, and even now there are some living who hold this opinion of his. And there is Marcion, a man of Pontus, who is even at this day alive, and teaching his disciplesto believein some other god greater than the Creator. And he, by the aid of the devils, has caused many of every nation to speak blasphemies, and to deny that God is the maker of this universe, and to assert that some other being, greater than He, has done greater works. All who take their opinions from these men, are, as we before said, called Christians; just as also those who do not agree with the philosophersin their doctrines, have yet in common with them the name of philosophersgiven to them. And whether they perpetrate those fabulous and shameful deeds— the upsetting of the lamp, and promiscuous intercourse, and eating humanflesh— we knownot; but we do knowthat they are neither persecutednor put to deathby you, at least on account of their opinions. But I have a treatise against all the heresiesthat have existedalready composed, which, if you wish to read it, I will give you.

 

Chapter 56. The demons still mislead men

 

But the evil spiritswere not satisfied with saying, before Christ's appearance, that those who were said to be sons of Jupiter were born of him; but after He had appeared, and been born among men, and when they learned how He had been foretold by the prophets, and knewthat He should be believedon and looked for by every nation, they again, as was said above, put forward other men, the SamaritansSimon and Menander, who did many mighty works by magic, and deceived many, and still keep them deceived. For even among yourselves, as we said before, Simon was in the royal city Rome in the reign of Claudius Cæsar, and so greatly astonished the sacred senate and people of the Romans, that he was considered a god, and honoured, like the others whom you honouras gods, with a statue. Wherefore we praythat the sacred senate and your people may, along with yourselves, be arbiters of this our memorial, in order that if any one be entangled by that man's doctrines, he may learn the truth, and so be able to escape error; and as for the statue, if you please, destroy it.

 

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0126.htm

 

 

Marcion of Pontius is well documented figure and focal point major Christian heresy which was that ‘Satan’ or at least a defective demiurge ruled the world with the ruling class as it agents.

 

Which was theological class analysis and justifiable interpretation of the gospel material as in temptation of Christ in Luke.

 

Justin also seems to believe that the emperor circa AD150 has a historical record of Pontius Pilate executing JC.

 

Chapter 35.

 

The Roman state reproduced a new anti Christian Acts of Pilate circa 300AD that was destroyed by the Christians.

 

It is not to much infer from brief references to it, if the title isn’t a bit of giveaway,   that it accepted the historicity of JC.

 

Nearly all the early christain intellectuals were, had been or came from a Platonist school or it later variants.

 

 

They were all binned and their material became top shelve material after about 350AD.

 

Origen was posthumously excommunicated; it appears that he took Myth of Er stuff too seriously.

 

 

 

It may have also been a consequence of another famous this time Platonist  anti Christian book; again destroyed by the Christians.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyry_(philosopher)#Against_the_Christians_.28Adversus_Christianos.29

 

 

What was actually in it is highly speculative of course.

 

The later Christians didn’t like Platonism as it suggested and antecedent.

 

It could also run into theological an philosophical problems if one was to over analyse material as in Plato’s republic; whilst attributing to the Christian god total control and approval of the status quo material and socio economic etc.

 

 

 

 

 

As the following albeit later position took root.

 

The divine right of kings did precede

 

Eg

 

….“According to Calvin, God not only created the universe, he also rules or governs it, including ruling or governing evil events and actions,”and elsewhere, “The whole of the creation…is subject to his decree and sovereign control….

 

https://thoughtsofalivingchristian.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/critical-analysis-of-calvins-doctrine-of-providence-and-pastoral-application/

 

 

 

 

 

Thus Plato republic book 2

 

[379b] and always to be spoken ofas such?” “Certainly.” “But further, no good thing is harmful, is it?” “I think not.” “Can what is not harmful harm?” “By no means.” “Can that which does not harm do any evil?” “Not that either.” “But that which does no evil would not be cause of any evil either?” “How could it?” “Once more, is the good beneficent?” “Yes.” “It is the cause, then, of welfare?” “Yes.” “Then the good is not the cause of all things, but of things that are well it the cause—of things that are ill it is blameless.” “Entirely so,”

 

It is a bit strange really as that was the ‘independent’ Marcion position that the Platonist Justin was arguing against!

 

 

 

Eg Stephen Fry on God

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5RtDpva7nE

 

I don’t want to get locked into any particular variations on the interpretation of Plato.

 

gnome
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ALB wrote:

It is absurd to claim that Lucian confirms the historical existence of Jesus. All he confirms is that christians existed (which nobody denies) and believed that Jesus had existed (a belief nobody denies either). If Lucian had been more acquainted with what the christians believed Jesus had done (wine into water, curing the blind, raising the dead, walking on water) he would have had the same fun, as a sceptic of such claims and religions, in taking the mickey out of them as he did in "The Death of Peregrinus" and "Alexander The Oracle Monger". He knew the type.

My next witness is Paul of Tarsus who certainly existed and was in fact the real founder of christianity as a doctrine. As someone who spoke Greek he would have been well acquainted with saviour religions and turned the dissident Jewish sect that christianity started as into one. He lived at the same time as Jesus was supposed to have and was in Jerusalem at the same time that Jesus was supposed to be active as a miracle-worker. Yet he never mentions him as a real person, only as someone who appeared to him in a vision. See:

http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Is-Jesus-Christ-a-myth-Part-3-20150622

Why did he not mention Jesus as a person? Here's someone who could be a key witness but he says nothing. Talk about the absence of evidence !

Nobody has ever been able to produce the slightest physical evidence to support a historical Jesus; no artifacts, dwelling, works of carpentry, or self-written manuscripts. All claims about Jesus derive from writings of other people. There occurs no contemporary Roman record that shows Pontius Pilate executing a man named Jesus. Devastating to historians, there occurs not a single contemporary account that mentions Jesus. All documents about Jesus came well after the life of this alleged individual from either unknown authors, people who had never met him, or from fraudulent, mythical or allegorical writings. Although one can argue that many of these writings come from fraud or interpolations, they still could not serve as reliable evidence for a historical Jesus, simply because all sources about Jesus derive from hearsay accounts.

alanjjohnstone
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The existence or non-existence of an "end of the world is nigh, meet thy doom" Jewish prophet is fairly irrelevant to the development of a Christian communist tradition that over the centuries keeps on being resurrected in one way or another.

Is there any value in directing some of our propaganda towards those who uphold the "Golden Rule". 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Rule

I'm not convinced there is but i do think it is necessary to debate and discuss our campaign targets. We are having little success converting the Left, perhaps a new audience might be more fruitful. Since 2005 and the Make Poverty History, i came to realise despite its downturn the churches can still mobilise a vast political movement when it wishes. 

I know many will say it is an argument we should not be re-visiting and an invitation for certain ex-members to voice their concern that the Party has thrown the baby out with the bath-water with its religious/materialist position. But we have to find a receptive audience somewhere.

"I have no country to fight for; my country is the Earth, and I am a citizen of the World." - Eugene V. Debs

Dave B
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i

 

 

I would like to be persuaded that he didn’t exist.

 

I was told that I would be disappointed by someone well read in the subject if I investigated it thoroughly.

 

I started off from the position that the reported miracles were obviously nonsense and that automatically totally discredited the rest of the content.

 

And two, if he had been doing that kind of stuff, or more seriously,  somebody was reported as doing it; it would have got some attention.

 

 

I hadn’t considered the fact that that kind magic was as common then as now and reports of it wouldn’t have received the kind of attention that Hadrian’s wall,

also on the periphery of the roman empire and north of the Watford Gap got (not)

 

 in contemporary literature.

 

Actually there is nothing on Pontius Pilate as regards were he came from and were he went.

 

Archaeological evidence is scant; and inscription and maybe a coin or two?

 

There wouldn’t be archaeological evidence what would we expect his lost butty box?

 

With property of Jesus yoke and plough make, messiah and performer of miracles written on it?

 

But in a way that all besides the point pretty much.

 

I think the thesis is true and valid that on the balance of probabilities that JC existed as a historical figure.

 

And it is true that is overall consensus of informed people.

 

To take any other position places us in the same category of prejudiced climate change deniers and compromises our credibility for objectivity a least with informed opinion.

 

We could don’t give a damn in having our credibility harmed with informed intellectual new testament scholars; or Christians.

 

A sentiment I could understand.

 

I can appreciate why the historicity of Jesus could be an ‘inconvenient truth’ just as German funding of the Bolsheviks is for the Leninists.

 

I think the capacity to demonstrate the ability to look at and debate this kind of thing does us no harm.

 

I think there are a couple of billion at least nominal Christians; I guess some of them are working class.

 

And we have a ‘Marxist’pope as well now.

 

I think we need the understanding and superior understanding of their own shit to at least engage with them.

 

That is not particularly difficult as most of them haven’t read it.

 

You become an expert in three hours it is much easier than reading three volumes of capital and 50 of Lenin’s collected works.

 

Anyway it is good fun doing the JC was a communist stuff of Christian forums.

 

I have been kicked of two in less than 20 posts and survived 300+ on revleft even after what I thought would be my swan song by called them red fascists.

 

 

The Richard carrier site is the go to place for anti historicity stuff ; it is useful to get a handle what contentious and more importantly what isn’t.

 

http://www.richardcarrier.info/jesus.html

 

 

You can get another typical view on Christian communism from the author of

 

Money, Greed, and God: Why Capitalism Is the Solution and Not the Problem (Harper-One, 2009).

 

 

http://www.equip.org/article/was-the-early-church-communist/

 

 

 

 

gnome
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Dave B wrote:

I would like to be persuaded that he didn’t exist.

However...

Dave B wrote:
I think the thesis is true and valid that on the balance of probabilities that JC existed as a historical figure.

Were you once a Catholic by any chance?  laugh

Dave B wrote:
And it is true that is overall consensus of informed people.

Then it shouldn't be too difficult to provide citations by these "informed" people.

Dave B
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i

 

No not a catholic had a totally non religious background.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bart_D._Ehrman

 

Just because he is easy to read and entertaining lots you tubes you can watch.

 

He also did contemplate JC as a proto Marxist and feminist etc..

 

Doesn’t like Adam’s pagan Hellinistic influence and is orthodox in thinking Christianity emerged or evolved ideologically spontaneously out of Judaism.

 

A view shared by Roman the author of the book and bollocks in my opinion.

 

Had a 30 post run in with him over it.

alanjjohnstone
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Wikipedia offers an overview of sources to read

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_for_the_historical_Jesus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Did_Jesus_Exist%3F_(Ehrman)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portraits_of_the_historical_Jesus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_the_1st_century

Quote:
The history of early Christianity has notable points of resemblance with the modern working-class movement. Like the latter, Christianity was originally a movement of oppressed people: it first appeared as the religion of slaves and emancipated slaves, of poor people deprived of all rights, of peoples subjugated or dispersed by Rome. Both Christianity and the workers' socialism preach forthcoming salvation from bondage and misery; Christianity places this salvation in a life beyond, after death, in heaven; socialism places it in this world, in a transformation of society
- Engels

"I have no country to fight for; my country is the Earth, and I am a citizen of the World." - Eugene V. Debs

Young Master Smeet
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Another useful wikipedia article:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoras

The point isn't so much that there was never anyone called Jesus (although that itself may be debatable), but just how much was the product of a cultural milieu and legends.

For instance, it's argued we have very weak evidence for the existence of the Roman Emporers, and much we talk about comes from a handful of later histories.

Vin
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After some research I have unearthed documentary and historical evidence that Jesus was undoubtedly a 'communist'. He certainly kept company with some very dodgy characters. Could that be Vol One in front of him? Or perhaps the Communist Manifesto?

 

 

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